Collagen supplementation?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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jharp
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Location: Southeastern PA, USA
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Collagen supplementation?

Post Number:#1  Post by jharp » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:03 pm

New to this forum. First post.

Helping elderly father with severe cardiovascular problems (atrial fibrillation, congestive heart failure, atherosclerosis).

I feel a personal stake as well, since to the extent these problems are genetic I'm next in line to deal with them.

Unfortunately my background does not include any significant knowledge of biology, chemistry, biochemistry, or medicine. But I am well grounded in science and engineering principles. Have been researching and learning as much as I can for about a year now, but still have far more questions than answers.

One thing I'm certain of is that mainstream medicine is about as wrong as they can be when it comes to cardiovascular issues. But they sure make a lot of money selling drugs and surgical procedures. Always sad when true science is trumped by money. But that's the nature of the world we live in.

Conventional treatment for my father under direction of a cardiologist has done nothing to improve situation, and if anything health is getting worse since cardiologist insisted on restart of atorvastatin due to "high" cholesterol numbers in May. Had stopped in February and seemed much better mentally and physically.

Now at point of seriously considering trying alternative (unconventional) treatment options. Planning to give Pauling protocol a try, and have been trying to learn as much as I can about it. All I've read makes a lot of sense and seems sound from a scientific perspective. The lack of published studies evaluating its effectiveness is unfortunate but understandable given the way the medical/pharma industry works.

But there's one thing that puzzles me regarding the protocol. If the primary reason (in the context of atherosclerosis) for the Ascorbic Acid and L-Proline is to boost collagen production, why not just take collagen as a supplement? Seems like it would be a more immediate/direct way to address the actual problem and a logical extension of the idea of boosting/supplementing the bodies natural synthesis facilities.

Since it's not part of the protocol I assume there's some biochemical reason for not taking collagen, but in all my research so far I've never seen this issue addressed, and efforts to search the forum on this topic came up empty. I see different types of oral collagen supplements for sale, so if they're not useful in this context, what are they for?

Hoping someone with expertise on this topic would be kind enough to enlighten me.

Thanks,
Jeff

exitium
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Re: Collagen supplementation?

Post Number:#2  Post by exitium » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:30 am

If im not mistaken, supplemental collagen benefit comes from the building blocks that make up the supplement. I dont believe the body can just make use of collagen out of a bottle. It breaks it down into its nutritional components which are then used by the body.

Having said that, I am an avid strength athlete and over the years have suffered some minor injuries. Ive used all the typical supplements to help heal said injuries and to try and prevent the various aches and pains. None of them over the years have offered any real significant benefit.

Historically I have had to cycle my intensity and was limited to certain movements due to joint pain etc. Since starting PT a couple years ago by and large all of my aches and pains associated with collagen based tissue have basically resolved themselves. I have stopped PT a couple times for a few weeks each time as I often do for supps to gauge effectiveness and both times the old nagging pains come right back after a couple weeks and are once again resolved a couple weeks after restarting PT.

Thankfully I havent had any serious heart/arterial conditions that have allowed me to measure PT effectiveness there but I am sold on its ability to help my body keep my tendons/ligaments and joints in good shape even in light of all the weight I move weekly.

blade

Re: Collagen supplementation?

Post Number:#3  Post by blade » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:22 am

jharp wrote:New to this forum. First post.


Since it's not part of the protocol I assume there's some biochemical reason for not taking collagen, but in all my research so far I've never seen this issue addressed, and efforts to search the forum on this topic came up empty. I see different types of oral collagen supplements for sale, so if they're not useful in this context, what are they for?

Hoping someone with expertise on this topic would be kind enough to enlighten me.

Thanks,
Jeff


why does it matter?
do what works, PT works


eat better
take your 10+grams of AA
EFAs

lysine/proline(eggwhites/eggs)
niacin
garlic
veggies/fruits
(broccoli/spinach/rhubarb/berries/apples)
nuts(almonds, Brazil, pumpkin)

lift weights,
do some cardio

be happy(attitude affects health, ie stress)
as in why zebras dont get ulcers, a good read, basically explaining humans have chronic stress and animals dont)
http://www.mta.ca/pshl/docs/zebras.pdf


why can't we take ATP pills instead of eating food?

ofonorow
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Re: Collagen supplementation?

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:24 pm

jharp wrote:New to this forum. First post.

Helping elderly father with severe cardiovascular problems (atrial fibrillation, congestive heart failure, atherosclerosis).


I wish we had encouraged people like your father to video tape themselves describing their condition, medications and supplements before starting the Pauling therapy.

I feel a personal stake as well, since to the extent these problems are genetic I'm next in line to deal with them.

Not sure how you found us, but thanks to Linus Pauling, you do not have to follow in your father's foot steps. All you have to do is correct the genetic defect that prevents your liver from making vitamin C (out of glucose). The GULO defect is easily corrected by taking enough vitamin C to match what our ancestors would have produced.

Unfortunately my background does not include any significant knowledge of biology, chemistry, biochemistry, or medicine. But I am well grounded in science and engineering principles. Have been researching and learning as much as I can for about a year now, but still have far more questions than answers.

I was having a discussion with a colleague this morning about how the more educated a person is, the harder it is for them to accept the notion that heart disease, for example, is merely a vitamin deficiency disease. Seems impossible that science could have missed it.

One thing I'm certain of is that mainstream medicine is about as wrong as they can be when it comes to cardiovascular issues. But they sure make a lot of money selling drugs and surgical procedures. Always sad when true science is trumped by money. But that's the nature of the world we live in.


Yes, heart disease accounts for 40 to 60 percent of hospital revenues. In a perfect world, this revenue could dry up in 30 days. Then what?


Conventional treatment for my father under direction of a cardiologist has done nothing to improve situation, and if anything health is getting worse since cardiologist insisted on restart of atorvastatin due to "high" cholesterol numbers in May. Had stopped in February and seemed much better mentally and physically.


Did you father notice this also? If so, remind him of that! Those drugs, in my opinion, are slowly killing him.. As we have discussed ad naseum

Now at point of seriously considering trying alternative (unconventional) treatment options. Planning to give Pauling protocol a try, and have been trying to learn as much as I can about it. All I've read makes a lot of sense and seems sound from a scientific perspective. The lack of published studies evaluating its effectiveness is unfortunate but understandable given the way the medical/pharma industry works.

But there's one thing that puzzles me regarding the protocol. If the primary reason (in the context of atherosclerosis) for the Ascorbic Acid and L-Proline is to boost collagen production, why not just take collagen as a supplement? Seems like it would be a more immediate/direct way to address the actual problem and a logical extension of the idea of boosting/supplementing the bodies natural synthesis facilities.

Since it's not part of the protocol I assume there's some biochemical reason for not taking collagen, but in all my research so far I've never seen this issue addressed, and efforts to search the forum on this topic came up empty. I see different types of oral collagen supplements for sale, so if they're not useful in this context, what are they for?

Hoping someone with expertise on this topic would be kind enough to enlighten me.

Thanks,
Jeff


Excellent question (why not just take collagen) and I will attempt to keep my answer short. In a nutshell, exitium I think, was correct. Our bodies digest proteins into amino acids, which the DNA in our cells rearranges into proteins our body needs. So the collagen would not make it though the GI tract into the blood stream intact. To the extent the collagen contained the amino acid lysine, this would contribute to the body's lysine pool and could contribute to the body's own production of collagen (which requires vitamin C).

However, while keeping the arteries strong with sufficient collagen should, in theory, prevent the lesions that lead to heart disease, the actual invention of "Lp(a) binding inhibitors" is based on the way that the "plaque" adheres to the wall of damaged artery. The so-called Lysine (and proline) binding sites on the Lp(a) cholesterol molecule adhere to strands of lysine that are now exposed (from the broken collagen) in the lesion.

So Lp(a) forms a plaster-like cast to repair the hole in the artery. All because of the lysine binding site.

But what if the binding site - consider it a key hole with lysine the key - is filled before it reaches the damaged arterial wall? Lp(a) with lysine already bound to it (from the blood stream) is no longer sticky, can no longer adhere to lysine in the growing plaque. The analogy is making the sticky Lp(a) molecule like teflon. So the Lp(a) binding inhibitors are doing more than replacing collagen - the Pauling invention actually prevents, and he said it could reverse atherosclerotic plaque buildups in the arteries. (In fact one of their patents is for dipping transplant organs with plaques in a solution of vitamin C and lysine - and the plaque melts away.)
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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