Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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pamojja
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#31  Post by pamojja » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:56 am

89826 wrote: I understand that to a lay person almost all studies and theories can sound equally convincing. Of course they are not all equally good. How do you distinguish? That's the million dollar question.


Ask Dr. Google! Many articles will come up. For example the very extensive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method. Or more to the crucial points to look for: http://www.eufic.org/article/en/expid/u ... c-studies/

It does take a lot of time to understand the limitations of particular study designs or interpretation. But practicing this since starting my path to health 7 years ago it has become much easier - not an answer worth a million dollar, but thousands of hours in studying.

89826 wrote:I have posted a couple of links here which can save your life. From what you describe, you are in a pickle. They will only take a very short time to look at.


The quick reading of a couple of convincing links puts you in the danger of not being able to distinguish and can not replace thousands of hours in studying.



Dear 89826,

from what I describe I'm not in a pickle at all, but during the last seven years I could:
  • avoid an invasive procedure of a chirurgical replacement of a large part of my adominal aorta
  • any side-effect laden prescription meds
  • completely ease the most debilitating symptoms of claudatio intermittens pains
  • and improve most blood markers from outside normal reference ranges towards to what some consider optimal (liver, kidney, insulin, CBC, thyroid, nutritional deficiencies or excesses etc...)
..by changing from low-fat lacto-vegetarian to high-fat pescarian and comprehensive supplementation adjusted according to blood markers and symptoms.

From what you describe (nothing personal at all) you could accomplish NONE of these points, adapted to your condition and particular low-fat diet.

Whose live is really more in danger?

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#32  Post by gizmo1955 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:15 pm

Which goes back to my original comment , with so many varying viewpoints .....what should the laymen believe?

Going to visit my cardiologist tomorrow and I'm wanting to have an intellegent conversation with him about dropping statins, diet, Pauling Therapy and my current bouts with angina with exercise. I'm still trying to work out in my head how this conversation will go, probably not to my liking but that's a discussion for the day after the appointment.

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt, you guys go on with your conversation........

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#33  Post by 89826 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:01 am

Gizmo,
Have a look at heartattackproof.com. There is no ambiguity about the merits of Esselstyn's approach. He has radiographic proof (arteriograms) of plaque reversal and compelling case histories. Combine it with Pauling's ideas, which don't conflict at all, and you will beat this thing.

One of the common reactions when people learn about the benefits of plant-based nutrition is, why haven't I heard about this before? Gizmo, now you know.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#34  Post by ofonorow » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:13 am

gizmo1955 wrote:Which goes back to my original comment , with so many varying viewpoints .....what should the laymen believe?

Going to visit my cardiologist tomorrow and I'm wanting to have an intellegent conversation with him about dropping statins, diet, Pauling Therapy and my current bouts with angina with exercise. I'm still trying to work out in my head how this conversation will go, probably not to my liking but that's a discussion for the day after the appointment.

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt, you guys go on with your conversation........


Without entering the debate over "plant based nutrition". Lots of people are vegetarians and they can be low on proteins and coq10, for example. I remember getting calls from 2 different attorneys whose "health nut" female patients had to go in for liver transplants because they were put on statin cholesterol-lowering drugs. (They had googled and found our "anti-statin" web page and were looking for fodder in the upcoming law suits. The issue with vegetarians is the low amount of CoQ10 in their diets (from not eating meats. Plants don't need CoQ10 because, well, they are plants. They don't move and don't need to create energy). Then you take a statin which lowers your CoQ10 and wham - you lose the liver and possibly other organs. In my opinion, even without statins, certain people are likely to experience heart failure as they age on a "plant based diet."

The problem with your desire to have an "intelligent conversation" with your doctor is that you are bringing knowledge to the table that he doesn't have, (What doctor wants to admit that he/she doesn't know everything?) and his training has made him even more arrogant. (The vitamin C info cannot possibly be true - otherwise he would know it from his training.) He may be the type who is willing to listen and learn, but from my experience, there is not a lot to gain by trying to reason with your doctor. (In his mind, who are you? Why should you have any knowledge that he doesn't?)

An approach that may work, is to try to enlist his help in an experiment. Rather than try to have him rest his reputation on recommending something he knows nothing about, you might say that you have started reading about Linus Pauling and his invention for heart disease. Would he (your doctor) be willing to monitor you while you try Pauling's ideas - and let you know whether you are experiencing a decline or benefit? Something that doesn't challenge is knowledge, and the offer for him to learn as he gauges the effectiveness. Still may not work, but its better than trying to have an "inteligent conversation" about a subject he knows nothing about
.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#35  Post by 89826 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:32 am

Owen,
Seems you are trying to enter the debate about plant-based nutrition. Easy to get adequate amounts of protein and CoQ10 from plant sources.

Please provide evidence buttressing your opinion that plant-based nutrition encourages heart failure.

I agree that statins are something to be avoided.

Seems your behavior is somewhat similar to that you question in physicians: dismissing an idea you are not familiar with. Pauling was a scientist, and good scientists are interested in ideas. Pauling's therapy of vitamin C and lysine is indeed a wonderful idea. So is Esselstyn's about the health of the endothelium.

People are often struggling for their lives with this disease: a life and death battle. Why not use every sensible weapon? As I have written before, the approaches don't conflict at all.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#36  Post by ofonorow » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:31 am

89826 wrote:Owen,
Seems you are trying to enter the debate about plant-based nutrition. Easy to get adequate amounts of protein and CoQ10 from plant sources.

Untrue. While it is possible to get complete protein - with a careful diet - plants to not move, therefore there is no reason for them to contain CoQ10 - which is the enzyme required for energy in animal cells.

We humans can make our own CoQ10, especially when we are young, but at some point, and depending on diet, we can lose the capability to make our own CoQ10, leading to the deficit that created the calls to me. These calls from attorney's with "health nut" women, vegetarians, facing liver transplants (after being prescribed statins for "prevention".)

I have covered what I know about CoQ10 (and the quote that the incidence of congestive heart failure has triple since they were first introduced), in this article
http://www.internetwks.com/owen/coq10.htm

Please provide evidence buttressing your opinion that plant-based nutrition encourages heart failure.


The above article combined with the calls I received from attorneys.

Note that this issue can be easily be resolved in vegetarians by supplementing at least 200 mg of CoQ10. The Canadian's are told this (in their versions of the American Medical Journals) but American doctors are not told of the problem depleting CoQ10 from taking statins. Most US doctors have no idea what CoQ10 is. Or that its deficiency leads to a loss of energy which manifests as congestive heart failure, or complete organ failure.


I agree that statins are something to be avoided.

Seems your behavior is somewhat similar to that you question in physicians: dismissing an idea you are not familiar with. Pauling was a scientist, and good scientists are interested in ideas. Pauling's therapy of vitamin C and lysine is indeed a wonderful idea. So is Esselstyn's about the health of the endothelium.

The health of my endothelium is apparently fine. I have no heart disease. I happen to like steaks, especially the Filets at the Texas Roadhouse dinner where we dine weekly. I eat meat without hesitation.

Most vegetarians I know don't look well to me. Their skin isn't the color and texture of my wife's and my skin. I accept that some people may do better on a vegetarian diet, but their ancestors would have needed to live close to the equator where fruits and vegetables were available all year round. They would have slower digestive systems.

For people with ancestors from farther north, the availability of fruits and vegetables would have been limited for part or most of the year, and they have evolved to eat meets, and have a much "faster" operating digestive tract. From Kelly/Gonazalez and others who suggest diet depending on metabolic type - the ancestry (seems to boil down to speed of digestion) plays a key role in how people react to different foods.

So yes, I freely admit that I dismiss the idea that "one diet" can be healthy for all of us. But who cares what I think. If it works for you, wonderful.


People are often struggling for their lives with this disease: a life and death battle. Why not use every sensible weapon? As I have written before, the approaches don't conflict at all.

Is it sensible to lose your liver?
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#37  Post by 89826 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:42 pm

Owen,

This is a simple factual question. Do plant sources provide CoQ10? Despite your assertions, the answer is yes they do. Google away. It is perhaps a little surprising and puzzling to me that you wouldn't inform yourself before risking your credibility.

The link you provided is to an article you yourself wrote about CoQ10. It makes no mention of plant-based nutrition and heart failure. It seems that idea of yours hinges on CoQ10. See my first paragraph above.

The complete protein nonsense is a persistent myth. I suggest you Google that too.

If you are unwilling to use Google yourself, I am happy to provide links.

As I have described above, there are two distinct mechanisms for heart attacks. One, plaque rupture, allows people to be asymptomatic until the awful event. (Until the stenosis is roughly 70%, people are asymptomatic.) Over half the time, the first symptom of heart disease is death. The other mechanism, gradual stenosis due to plaque accumulation, usually provides warning in the form of angina. Gradual stenosis leading to total occlusion is the mechanism only about 10-15% of the time.

Being asymptomatic unfortunately doesn't guarantee good cardiovascular health.

If you are eating meat regularly, your endothelium is compromised. However, in another striking endorsement for vitamin C, taking 2 grams before a damaging meal tends to preserves endothelial function.

The brachial artery tourniquet test is used to evaluate the health of the endothelium. No need to guess.

You seem to be saying that if you eat a plant-based diet you will suffer liver failure. Is that right? I would ask for references, but there is no point asking for something that doesn't exist. In fact, people suffering liver problems are often put on plant-based diets.

Perhaps you are conflating vegetarian diets with plant-based diets. They are not the same; "vegan" has a third meaning. Vegetarian diets usually include dairy products and eggs. Vegan diets don't allow consuming anything whose source was sentient. So Coke and potato chips are vegan. Plant-based diets are based on plants, with no oil.
Last edited by 89826 on Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#38  Post by jimmylesante » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:25 am

This is my view on the French Paradox. Where many have thought it was the Extra Virgin Olive Oil- and if ALL oils damage endothelium. Then we must scrub out the oil theory right?
1)Eat a plant based diet
2)If you do include meat into your predominantly plant based diet then eat in a certain order=== Which may mean an entree of avocado followed by a salad then followed by meat. Provided you eat the salad first it'll protect against endothelial damage.

Plants do have co enzyme q10 but you need to eat 3-4 gallons of them to get the RDA.!!

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#39  Post by Johnwen » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am


89826 Wrote:
You seem to be saying that if you eat a plant-based diet you will suffer liver failure. Is that right? I would ask for references, but there is no point asking for something that doesn't exist. In fact, people suffering liver problems are often put on plant-based diets.


Excuse Me!!!
But have you ever heard of this???????

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-dise ... c-fatigue/

A little more detail!

http://www.tvernonlac.com/copper-toxicity.html
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#40  Post by 89826 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:20 am

Jimmy,

The leading cause of death for the French is heart disease, just as it is in the US. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their diet-- not much of a paradox.

The order of eating foods isn't important wrt the health of the endothelium. Except, I suppose one could imagine that eating lots of foods very high in vitamin C first could be a little protective before a damaging meal. Eating avacado and salad first doesn't qualify as that.

There is no RDA for CoQ10. But for comparison: 3 ounces of beef has 2.6 milligrams. Broccoli and cauliflower have around 1.0 per cup. Oranges have 0.3. And so on. Check your math about gallons. :)

Johnwen,

Accepting your links at face value, and there is no need to do anything less than that for the purposes of this discussion, make sure to get enough zinc. Easy to do with plant foods.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#41  Post by jimmylesante » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:25 am

89826 accepting your statements at face value would be fool hardy.
The leading cause of death for the French is heart disease, just as it is in the US. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their diet-- not much of a paradox.

France mortality from ischemic heart disease is a quarter of Englands. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115846/
Here some more
Even more confusing are the people of France. Although the French smoke more, eat more fat, and consume only slightly more fruit and vegetables than the British do, the French have the lowest heart death rate in the European Union – only about one-quarter of the British rate. This is the notorious “French Paradox“, which epidemiologists have puzzled over for decades.

Another easier read for you http://www.healthassist.net/food/french/french-paradox.shtml
The USA has a death rate of 78/100k for heart disease as opposed to Frances 30/100k.

You seem to be the only one who thinks there is no paradox??? Which is worrying!
I think it is illogical to think the order of eating foods(the french do this:) wouldn't have an effect on the ingestion of certain foods and then alleged damage to the endothelial cells. Eating vitamin c salads first plus full of vitamin B's which regulate homocysteine et al would benefit greatly the effects of a "damaging meal."

There is no RDA for CoQ10. But for comparison: 3 ounces of beef has 2.6 milligrams. Broccoli and cauliflower have around 1.0 per cup. Oranges have 0.3. And so on. Check your math about gallons. :)


Luckily maths is my strong point. So 3ounces of beef which is 85grams of beef, according to you has 2.6milligrams . Now with no RDA set but a recommended amount of 200mg of CoQ10 that means it'd take 6545grams of beef to get the daily intake of 200mg. Which if a gallon is 4404grams this amount of beef would be over 1and a half gallons.
Now let's look at Broccoli at 1mg. Assuming one cup is roughly 250g then it'd take 50000grams of brocolli to get 200mg of co enzyme q10 which is about 11 gallons.(many gallons :) )
Perhaps next time you could do the maths :oops: :lol: And perhaps fling out an apology to this narcissistic comment of yours
This is a simple factual question. Do plant sources provide CoQ10? Despite your assertions, the answer is yes they do. Google away. It is perhaps a little surprising and puzzling to me that you wouldn't inform yourself before risking your credibility.


Do plants provide coq10 yes(or is it coq9??), do they provide enough, well yes, if you have time to eat gallons and gallons :lol: :lol: :lol: You mentioned credibility- i think you're losing what little you had.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#42  Post by 89826 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:56 am

Jimmy,

I am interested in diets which assure cardiovascular health. That's not the French diet. Heart disease is the leading cause of death there.

6,545 grams of beef is over 14 pounds. How is that helpful? Do you eat that much every day? How many gallons is that?

If you want to take 200 mg per day of CoQ10, it seems you must take a pill, no? No matter what your diet.

Please provide evidence that the order of eating foods affects damage to the endothelium. There is evidence that vitamin C is prophylactic.
Last edited by 89826 on Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#43  Post by gizmo1955 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:58 am

Well, I went to the cardiologist last Thursday and as suspected the discussion was less than useful. He did not do any tests as there was no openings they were all booked up. So Owen, as you mentioned it maybe helpful to get an extension. A Thallium stress test will be done on October 20th. As we were setting this up he said "unless you want to do a cath...." I commented "NO.. as a matter of fact I would like to stay away from stents altogether,(assuming that will be the natural progression if something is found during the cath) I would like to try abscorbic acid". Then he commented "WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN" - I said "why not?" "IT'S NOT PROVEN!" I said "that's because nobody has done any testing.." and the 5 minute appointment was over, no further discussion. He pretty much walked out except I was able ask him for a ER version of nitro, which he agreed to.

So Owen, you pretty much nailed the attitude. You're right though, it would be nice if they could work with me and monitor progress and make suggestions. I'm not sure that can happen. My guess is, unless I have some drastic changes between now and the 20th and depending what the thallium indicates, I will probably be looking for a second opinion.

89826- I take your point that both the plant based diet and PT can work together. Personally, I am trying to get back on track with the diet but I have always had issues with eating properly and it is the same with this diet. I have been able to stick pretty close to the main principles, nothing with a face or a mother, no oil (maybe a little PAM to spray a pan) etc. Sugar has been an issue as well as just eating too much and too fast. All things to work on.

Thanks to all of you for your continued insight and help. :)

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#44  Post by 89826 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:07 pm

Giz, heart disease is a food-borne illness. Fix the fuel. If you do that, you will be in charge of your health. One thing to keep in mind, is that cravings for the various unhealthy foods abate after about 3 weeks of abstinence.

Go to Esselstyn's website. There he has arteriograms of plaque reversal. Seeing the images will help to keep you motivated.

No oil! If you are going to eat foods which damage the endothelium (in the short term, while you clean up your diet all the way), take 2 grams of vitamin C right before. A healthy endothelium means that nitric oxide production will increase- allowing better dilation of your arteries. That will help with your angina.

For your next visit to this physician: In my view, the most compelling evidence about the merits of vitamin C and heart disease is the experiment done with (I think) rats. Whatever the laboratory animal, their genes were modified so that they could no longer manufacture vitamin C. They developed atherosclerosis in a matter of weeks. And remember, physicians are not scientists, far from it usually. They often need help in seeing the light. Be prepared to give a citation to the experiment, if you really want to pursue this with him or her.

Of course if one is being careful about things, that experiment doesn't show that increasing vitamin C levels will lead to plaque reversal. But it certainly is very suggestive.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#45  Post by jimmylesante » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:42 pm

The order of eating foods isn't important wrt the health of the endothelium.


Please provide evidence that the order of eating foods affects damage to the endothelium.

Please provide evidence that the order of eating foods isn't important.
6,545 grams of beef is over 14 pounds. How is that helpful? Do you eat that much every day? How many gallons is that?

I did the maths for you, please go re-read it. My point being as per my previous post is you need to eat gallons and gallons of plant based food to get anywhere near 200mg intake- you erroneously believed otherwise without simply...doing the maths.

You are taking a very simplistic approach-
Giz, heart disease is a food-borne illness.
really- so if i eat according to 89826 but smoke like a chimney i won't get heart disease? Or if i eat according to 89826 and work in the stock exchange which =stress which =cortisol which =impaired endothelial function i won't get heart disease. Or if i have serious bacterial infections, lack of vitamin D, lack of sleep and a sedentary lifestyle i won't get heart disease because you said
Giz, heart disease is a food-borne illness.
????
FYI number 89826 to protect your precious endothelium (though i'd like YOU to put up evidence that ALL oils have a medium to long term affect on endothelial cells!-- which i already know you can't produce even though you expect the same from everyone else)
1)Eat less sugar
2)Don't eat Bad fats
3)Get active
4)Reduce stress
5)Promote a healthy liver-use silymarin(google it yourself for links)
6)Increase your vitamin D(again google it yourself!)
7)Laugh!!!This improves vascular and endothelial health for as long as 45mins after the last giggle(i doubt you do this much :roll:
8)Eat a whole raw unprocessed food diet
9)Supplement with antioxidants- AEC and Bvitamins plus other anti-oxidants
10)Get Proper probiotics in the gut
11)Minerals- get enough zinc,magnesium and calcium in the right quantities for endothelial health
12)Anti-inflammatory herbs, i.e garlic,curcumin.Ginko, Bromelain etc
13)Eat Healthy Fats-fish fat, avocado,olive oil. Omega 3's in fish oil/supplements improve endothelial function by increasing NO and reducing triglycerides and bad cholesterol whilst increasing good cholesterol.(
Lakatta, Ed G. (2009). How to Promote and Maintain a Healthy Endothelium) A link for you
14) Protein- eat less animal protein(or alternatively eat the same animal protein but increase your vegetable intake??) because animal protein means more homocysteine which can damage the endothelial lining. Fish nuts,legumes,chicken and beans provide L-arginine which is good for NO production. Of course though homocysteine can be broken down into components of which glutathione is one and a very strong antioxidant- that is providing that there is enough vitamin B's(b2,b6,b12) zinc and magnesium. Which of course comes in good old fashioned vegetables ergo eat these in high enough quantities before a "harmful meal" and the fibre would help protect the ingestion rate and the vitamins and other phytochemicals help reduce damage. Also if homocysteine damages endothelial lining and omega 3 oils reduce homocysteine which would equal less damage to the endothelial lining by homocysteine, ergo Dr Esselstyn and his ALL oils are bad is incorrect
15)Don't smoke,or take crack cocaine or drink excessively
I am interested in diets which assure cardiovascular health. That's not the French diet. Heart disease is the leading cause of death there.

Is it the diet that causes the heart disease or any one of the above that have absolutely nothing to do with food?
[url]
http://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/ ... on/page-02[/url]
Life extension has a good write up about homocysteine.


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