Lysosomal VC

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

Moderator: ofonorow

Xdxml
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 am
Contact:

Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#1  Post by Xdxml » Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:54 pm

Hello everyone

I’m trying to find information about liposomal VC dosage. I’m taking 12 to 16 grams of AA capsules per day , if I want to switch, is there a conversion to how much that would be when taking liposomal? There is a quali C AA, China free liposomal in capsule form that I’m considering .

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:36 pm

Dr. Levy did a study:

https://isom.ca/article/

Summary

Comparisons of the liposome-encapsulated and non-encapsulated (powder) ascorbate supplementations demonstrated that liposomal ascorbate intake results in longer retention of ascorbate in blood. Plasma concentrations of ascorbate remained at the level of 100% increase during 3 hours for non-encapsulated ascorbate and longer than 4.5 hours for liposomal ascorbate. The maximum percentage of ascorbate increase was the same for both formulations and reached 150%-170%.

The concentrations of ascorbate in white blood cells were changed after intake of ascorbate in the form of non-encapsulated and encapsulated liposomal ascorbate supplementations. The average maximum increase in the concentrations of ascorbate in cells was the same for both formulations (in range 40%÷50%). The data show that liposomal ascorbate resulted in faster intake by cells. The comparison of the areas under the curve for concentrations that were higher than initial levels showed that AUC was on 50% larger for liposomal formulation in comparison with non-encapsulated ascorbate.

The data support our hypothesis that hydrocortisone can have effect on the uptake of ascorbate by cells, when it is given as an adjuvant to ascorbate supplementation. The injection of hydrocortisone before intake of supplements resulted in more favorable percentage of intracellular ascorbate intake.

The weakness of the study is the low number of the participants and the measurements of ascorbate concentrations in plasma and cells by a method based on the condensation reaction of dehydroascorbic with formation of colored product that was detected by fluorescence.


To summarize, the same plasma levels with both, but a insignificant slightly longer retention time for liposomal at equal 5 gram doses. Now the results at least I have been waiting for a long time: lymphocytes cell concentration actually the same again, but AUC concentration in cells 50% larger with liposomal only.

I certainly will stick to the 25 g/d of ordinary ascorbic acid I took for 12 years, and which already showed so many health-benefits to me. Instead of taking about 16 g/d of expensive liposomal, which would equate my dose in respect to intra-cellular absorption according to this new study.

Saw
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 2012
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#3  Post by Saw » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:51 pm

pamojja wrote:To summarize, the same plasma levels with both


This was always a problem for me since liposomes are said to bypass
the regular pathways. Yet the studies showing Identical plasma levels
were enough to convince me the lipo C was subject to the same uptake
limitations (systems)of AA.
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

Xdxml
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#4  Post by Xdxml » Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:57 am

pamojja wrote:Dr. Levy did a study:

https://isom.ca/article/

Summary

Comparisons of the liposome-encapsulated and non-encapsulated (powder) ascorbate supplementations demonstrated that liposomal ascorbate intake results in longer retention of ascorbate in blood. Plasma concentrations of ascorbate remained at the level of 100% increase during 3 hours for non-encapsulated ascorbate and longer than 4.5 hours for liposomal ascorbate. The maximum percentage of ascorbate increase was the same for both formulations and reached 150%-170%.

The concentrations of ascorbate in white blood cells were changed after intake of ascorbate in the form of non-encapsulated and encapsulated liposomal ascorbate supplementations. The average maximum increase in the concentrations of ascorbate in cells was the same for both formulations (in range 40%÷50%). The data show that liposomal ascorbate resulted in faster intake by cells. The comparison of the areas under the curve for concentrations that were higher than initial levels showed that AUC was on 50% larger for liposomal formulation in comparison with non-encapsulated ascorbate.

The data support our hypothesis that hydrocortisone can have effect on the uptake of ascorbate by cells, when it is given as an adjuvant to ascorbate supplementation. The injection of hydrocortisone before intake of supplements resulted in more favorable percentage of intracellular ascorbate intake.

The weakness of the study is the low number of the participants and the measurements of ascorbate concentrations in plasma and cells by a method based on the condensation reaction of dehydroascorbic with formation of colored product that was detected by fluorescence.


To summarize, the same plasma levels with both, but a insignificant slightly longer retention time for liposomal at equal 5 gram doses. Now the results at least I have been waiting for a long time: lymphocytes cell concentration actually the same again, but AUC concentration in cells 50% larger with liposomal only.

I certainly will stick to the 25 g/d of ordinary ascorbic acid I took for 12 years, and which already showed so many health-benefits to me. Instead of taking about 16 g/d of expensive liposomal, which would equate my dose in respect to intra-cellular absorption according to this new study.



Thanks, it seems if you do cut back it’s not by much. Is it 36% less vit c? From 25 to 16 grams.

If one were to take both, should they be taken together or spaced out. Is it possible to overdose on liposomal or same rules as the normal pathways.

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#5  Post by pamojja » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:53 am

150% area under the curve increase of intracellular levels is about 1/3 more intracellular ascorbate absorption. Therefore to get the same effect, about 1/3 more ascorbic acid has to be used.

This however only tells what happens in lymphocytes. And with the further caveat, that Levy in this study compared sodium ascorbate to liposomal sodium ascorbate. We all know from experience that pure ascorbic acid can be up to double as effective than sodium ascorbate. So this 1/3 increase in lymphocytes may actually be nil again, when using AA instead of SA right away.

We actually aren't that much wiser with this study. The only thing it unequivocally proves is, that manifacturers claims of multiple times more absorption are simply put: completely fraudulent.

Levy himself claims 10 times more effectiveness, but only with acute infections. Most manufacturers used this to claim 10 times more absorption, which hereby has shown a marketing lie. Based on absolutely no science.

Personally didn't experience any difference from using liposomal. It might indeed may be 10 times more effective with infections. And that's where its maybe worthwile a trial. However the problem is: with my high intake of pure ascorbic acid I simply don't experience infections. So no more opportunity to trial in such as my case.

Or take the hint from a recent experience by Owen, where he treated his infection with an clorine dioxide IV, followed by an ascorbate IV. If in his experience liposomal would really help infections, I can't but think he would used the liposomal he sells in his shop right away. Alas, he didn't.

So if you're somehow still fooled by this marketing gimmick, do buy a bottle of liposomal and trial it in a case of infection. Then honestly report back your results.

I could think of only one regular use of liposomal ascorbate: Pure Polyphosphaditylcholine is bloody expensive, since that is the main other compound in liposomal acscorbate, one might get one more reasonably priced than PPC itself. Including that too tiny too be good for anything ascorbate.

Sorry for my sarkasm, but I'm really angry about all that many cheaters. And all who don't kill this myth.
Last edited by pamojja on Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#6  Post by pamojja » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:58 am

Xdxml wrote:If one were to take both, should they be taken together or spaced out. Is it possible to overdose on liposomal or same rules as the normal pathways.


PPC in liposomal too has a bowel tolerance at high enough doses. Do you really want to take 10-20 grams of PPC a day? In case for that reason better take it with meals. While ascorbic acid is better taken on a empty stomach.

Xdxml
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#7  Post by Xdxml » Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:30 pm

pamojja wrote:
Xdxml wrote:If one were to take both, should they be taken together or spaced out. Is it possible to overdose on liposomal or same rules as the normal pathways.


PPC in liposomal too has a bowel tolerance at high enough doses. Do you really want to take 10-20 grams of PPC a day? In case for that reason better take it with meals. While ascorbic acid is better taken on a empty stomach.


Thanks for the insight, it was helpful. I’m trying to come to an informed decision and defiantly don’t want to add or fall victim to that type of scam.

The lyposomol I’ve seen is not from SA but list the details of the VC as

quali c ascorbic acid
Phospholipid complex

If that is the case can one assume that one can take 2.5 lyposomol of this form rather than take 5g of AA non lyposomol

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#8  Post by pamojja » Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:56 pm

Could you link to the product? Because it very unlikely is ascobic acid, but sodium bicarbonate, somewhere more hidden indicated. All liposomal I've seen on the marked are, but are sometimes wrongly labeld. Also compercial Pascorbin 'Ascorbic Acid' 7.5 ampoules for IVs, if one reads the text insert, is of course actually sodium ascorbate.

By the way, 1 g phosphatidylcholine contains about 130 mg choline.

Xdxml
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#9  Post by Xdxml » Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:45 pm

pamojja wrote:Could you link to the product? Because it very unlikely is ascobic acid, but sodium bicarbonate, somewhere more hidden indicated. All liposomal I've seen on the marked are, but are sometimes wrongly labeld. Also compercial Pascorbin 'Ascorbic Acid' 7.5 ampoules for IVs, if one reads the text insert, is of course actually sodium ascorbate.

By the way, 1 g phosphatidylcholine contains about 130 mg choline.


You can see it here and let me know your thoughts

https://coremedscience.com/products/lip ... o-soy-free

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#10  Post by pamojja » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:54 pm

Couldn't find any more. Could be just mis-naming, or they really used ascorbic acid. Interesting they say for best absorption in the small intestine don't open the capsule for taking its content in juice. While they actually also have a more expensive liquid version (which curiously specifies containing both: ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate). But with the liquid more expensive product they don't mention inferior absorption again?!? Just:

What is the difference between the softgels and liquid vitamin C?

The liquid liposomal Vitamin C works faster than the softgels because the softgels have to open which delays onset. The liquid also has more phospholipids (PC Complex), 500 mg versus the 350 mg of the softgels. The PC complex has its own very therapeutic and nutritional effect could potentially help in lowering cholesterol, aiding in cardiovascular health, enhancing focus and alertness and balancing the autonomic nervous system. Liquid vitamin C is flavored and has an orange-citrus taste that some people find quite pleasant, but others do not like it or want to avoid because of sensitivity to stevia and fructose. Note, the liquid also has to be refrigerated after opening.


The higher PC content explains the higher price though.

If that is the case can one assume that one can take 2.5 lyposomol of this form rather than take 5g of AA non lyposomol


I actually think it possible this company doesn't provides real liposomal, just an emulsion which aids in absorption a bid too. Reason being they're using much less PC, especially in the cheaper capsules, than any other liposomal ascorbate seen. Also the curious disadvise not to open capsules: That's really the first I would do, because if it's real liposomal all ascorbic acid is encapsulated, and no acidity could be tasted at all.

I could be wrong though. The only thing sure I can say that we don't have a study comparing ascorbic acid with liposomal ascorbic acid, therefore anything is just speculation at this point.

Not all is lost. Experimenting with different products usually does expose advantage or drawbacks.

For example in my case during rhinitis season with a sneezing-fit a teaspoon of ascorbic acid within 5-10 minutes quits it. Bud sodium ascorbate doesn't. Therefore if you do have any symptoms immatiately alleviated with ascorbic acid, try if this liposmal works just as well. And then decrease doses to learn the difference.

Xdxml
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#11  Post by Xdxml » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:45 am

pamojja wrote:Couldn't find any more. Could be just mis-naming, or they really used ascorbic acid. Interesting they say for best absorption in the small intestine don't open the capsule for taking its content in juice. While they actually also have a more expensive liquid version (which curiously specifies containing both: ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate). But with the liquid more expensive product they don't mention inferior absorption again?!? Just:

What is the difference between the softgels and liquid vitamin C?

The liquid liposomal Vitamin C works faster than the softgels because the softgels have to open which delays onset. The liquid also has more phospholipids (PC Complex), 500 mg versus the 350 mg of the softgels. The PC complex has its own very therapeutic and nutritional effect could potentially help in lowering cholesterol, aiding in cardiovascular health, enhancing focus and alertness and balancing the autonomic nervous system. Liquid vitamin C is flavored and has an orange-citrus taste that some people find quite pleasant, but others do not like it or want to avoid because of sensitivity to stevia and fructose. Note, the liquid also has to be refrigerated after opening.


The higher PC content explains the higher price though.

If that is the case can one assume that one can take 2.5 lyposomol of this form rather than take 5g of AA non lyposomol


I actually think it possible this company doesn't provides real liposomal, just an emulsion which aids in absorption a bid too. Reason being they're using much less PC, especially in the cheaper capsules, than any other liposomal ascorbate seen. Also the curious disadvise not to open capsules: That's really the first I would do, because if it's real liposomal all ascorbic acid is encapsulated, and no acidity could be tasted at all.

I could be wrong though. The only thing sure I can say that we don't have a study comparing ascorbic acid with liposomal ascorbic acid, therefore anything is just speculation at this point.

Not all is lost. Experimenting with different products usually does expose advantage or drawbacks.

For example in my case during rhinitis season with a sneezing-fit a teaspoon of ascorbic acid within 5-10 minutes quits it. Bud sodium ascorbate doesn't. Therefore if you do have any symptoms immatiately alleviated with ascorbic acid, try if this liposmal works just as well. And then decrease doses to learn the difference.


I just got the bottle. I will start experimenting with the dosage. Can I assume if I take the same gram for gram as normal VC I should have some kind of bowel issues bec if it’s liposomal I should technically need less?

I also cut it open. The inside is white and has a smoothie texture. It tastes very sour almost has a rancid metal taste. So it might not be real liposomal?

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 15822
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:45 am

I just got the bottle. I will start experimenting with the dosage. Can I assume if I take the same gram for gram as normal VC I should have some kind of bowel issues bec if it’s liposomal I should technically need less?

I also cut it open. The inside is white and has a smoothie texture. It tastes very sour almost has a rancid metal taste. So it might not be real liposomal?
Top


Our now over 20 year experience with Linus Pauling's protocol for reversing heart disease is mainly with ascorbic acid powder.

Here is what I think we know.

Like glutathione, there may be different effects inside cells and outside cells in the blood stream. Based on the Pauling/Rath theory, I assume that Lp(a) binding inhibitors (vitamin C, llysine) work OUTSIDE of cells to keep Lp(a) lysine binding sites from adhering to lysine residues on damaged arterial tissue.

High dose powder would work outside of cells.

We think we know that liposomal vitamin C has a profound (maybe 10 times IV) affect reversing infection, which is consistent with the vitamin C action with liposomal being INSIDE cells (perhaps leading to more GSH).

This reasoning (and lack of experience with liposomal alone) is why I hesitate recommending replacing powder with liposomal for CVD.

In cases where people supplement their ascorbic powder with additional liposomal, we have gotten very positive reports.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

Xdxml
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#13  Post by Xdxml » Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:57 am

ofonorow wrote:
I just got the bottle. I will start experimenting with the dosage. Can I assume if I take the same gram for gram as normal VC I should have some kind of bowel issues bec if it’s liposomal I should technically need less?

I also cut it open. The inside is white and has a smoothie texture. It tastes very sour almost has a rancid metal taste. So it might not be real liposomal?
Top


Our now over 20 year experience with Linus Pauling's protocol for reversing heart disease is mainly with ascorbic acid powder.

Here is what I think we know.

Like glutathione, there may be different effects inside cells and outside cells in the blood stream. Based on the Pauling/Rath theory, I assume that Lp(a) binding inhibitors (vitamin C, llysine) work OUTSIDE of cells to keep Lp(a) lysine binding sites from adhering to lysine residues on damaged arterial tissue.

High dose powder would work outside of cells.

We think we know that liposomal vitamin C has a profound (maybe 10 times IV) affect reversing infection, which is consistent with the vitamin C action with liposomal being INSIDE cells (perhaps leading to more GSH).

This reasoning (and lack of experience with liposomal alone) is why I hesitate recommending replacing powder with liposomal for CVD.

In cases where people supplement their ascorbic powder with additional liposomal, we have gotten very positive reports.


Thanks. I was planing on replacing powder AA with liposomal because of the new information about insulin and absorbing VC.

I now take 18g-21g vc per day divided 3 times
( as of today I’m still not sure how much VC I still need, after my initial results of 329 cholesterol in October ( was on keto diet) , I got my results yesterday and they are still high at 319 even after 18g of VC daily for 5 months and off any low carb diet ) I have also removed all my mercury fillings in November

If I were to introduce a fruit to raise insulin to absorb VC is there an estimate of how much vc I can cut back or would it be wise to use same dosage with a fruit and see... maybe that’s why the cholesterol was still high- lack of Vc absorption ? Any recommendations would be helpful.

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#14  Post by pamojja » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:30 am

The theory that ascobic acid uptake is enhanced by raising insulin is on even more shakier grounds (most today suffer from too high insulin and insulin-resistance) - than Levy's 10 times better effectiveness of liposomal with infections. The later has clinical experience behind, the former nothing than what a spirit told to a medium. But of course, everyone is free to believe whatever spirit they want.

( as of today I’m still not sure how much VC I still need,


The best way to find is still titrating to bowel-tolerance. Thereafter take slightly less than you tolerate.

pamojja
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Lysosomal VC

Post Number:#15  Post by pamojja » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:40 am

Xdxml wrote:
ofonorow wrote: , I got my results yesterday and they are still high at 319 even after 18g of VC daily for 5 months and off any low carb diet ) I have also removed all my mercury fillings in November


My lipids all greatly improved on a low carb diet. Was the mercury removed properly by a informed biological dentist? - Because otherwise the still high cholesterol could be explained to the increased exposure to mercury during the removal.


Return to “Heart Disease: Linus Pauling's Vitamin C/Lysine Therapy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 46 guests

cron