Hypothetical: Ascorbate in vaccines?

[Jacquie]

I know oral C is helpful for minimizing the toxicity of vaccines, and maximizing the antibody response to the antigen. Is there any evidence about the effect of injecting ascorbate right along with (or immediately after, as a second injection in the same spot) a vaccine? I'd imagine the detox would be outstanding, but that could be a problem: too much detox and the body won't recognize the virus/bacteria as a threat, meaning no antibody response.

[majkinetor]

Well, that is what would certainly happen IMO.
For instance, one of the main adjuvants in vacciness to promote immune response is Aluminium.

Now, while vitamin C promotes Al absorption from GI, it looks like when infused, it prevents Al toxicity. So it will effectively eliminate adjuvant part of the vaccine, it seems for those that have it (like most kids vaccines).

There is 1 study I found that looks into it for specific vaccine
"Using of vitamin E and Ascorbic acid, Vitamin C, as immunological adjurant in FMD vaccine testing in Guinea pigs"

[ofonorow]

Well, I would avoid the entire issue. a) vaccines have not shown that they provide public health benefits, and b) if everyone was taking our recommended vitamin C daily, there wouldn't be a need for any vaccines

[Jacquie]

Ah, but what about pets? The most relevant example is the rabies vaccine: 1.) It's required by law for dogs in most U.S. states (and an unvaccinated dog is subject to euthanization if they bite someone) and 2.) No high-dose C regimen has been properly tested for rabies treatment (probably need intraspinal administration!). I'm sure not gonna fool around with the rabies virus until hospitals are on board with C and know how to use it for rabies. Homemade intraspinal injections aren't my bag.

But some pets may need other vaccines. For example, foster pets. The odds are exceedingly slim that a pet will get a C-aware owner/guardian, so the only good protection they'll have against some pathogens are vaccines (FeLV and distempter, while C preventable and curable respectively, are also otherwise incurable to allopaths). Several veterinarians have gone on record saying they never see FeLV infection in cats that have received an FeLV vaccine, even once.

So the question becomes, in a C-hostile environment, is the protection some vaccines provide worth the risks (including cancer)? I'm guessing sometimes absolutely, sometimes absolutely not. It'd just be nice to be able to wipe out those risks with C, without preventing the immune-memory response to the vaccine.

[ofonorow]

I'll reluctantly concede on the issue of pets. (It is interesting that wild animals don't need vaccines, and according to Levy, domesticated animals make less of their own vitamin C.)

[Jacquie]

It is interesting that wild animals don't need vaccines...

This is a huge can of worms (probably be way more detail than anyone cares about, but what the heck...).

One reason wild animals survive without vaccines is that their population density is far lower than that of domesticated pets. Felis sylvestris (wildcat) will tolerate 1 male and up to 6 females on a dozen sq. km territory, meaning there's not a lot of opportunity for disease transmission. On the other hand, domesticated cat population density is whatever people make it - sometimes 3000 cats per square km. Disease spreads like wildfire under those conditions.

Another issue is, as you said, wild animals seem to make more C than domesticates. But wild animals are still infected by and die from the same diseases our pets are vaccinated for. Canine distemper causes fatal epidemics in wild carnivore populations every year. The feline leukemia virus and feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) are both widespread among feline populations, including bobcats, cougars, lions, tigers, cheetahs, etc (although the strain of FIV in lions, for example, seems to have become less virulent). So why do these pathogens kill wild C-makers, when C can prevent or cure the illnesses? Dunno. Maybe man-made toxins/stressors are eating up too much of their endogenous ascorbate.

Now, when it comes to rabies, some wild animals actually do get vaccinated. State governments have been distributing oral vaccines to wildlife for 20 years. It supposedly helps keep the rate of infection in wildlife down, so pets and people won't be exposed to the virus as often.

And finally, a fun fact: opossums are almost totally immune to rabies infection. No one has found a rabid opossum in nature, and in labs it takes extraordinarily massive doses of virus to infect them. They are also extremely resistant to snakebite. The traditional explanation for these resistances is their "low body temperature and metabolic rate". Hmmm. Seems I've heard of another substance that is an excellent antivirus and antivenom - and no one, to my knowledge, has measured how much of it opossums make...

[majkinetor]

Intriguing info as always Jacqiue. In support of your speculation, I found this from my former country, Yugoslavia

Prevention of rabies by vitamin C
and
Prophylactic effect of vitamin C on the incidence of rabies in guinea pigs inoculated with fixed rabies virus.

Here is some info from Hemila
http://goo.gl/yHZX2

Interestingly, related to this post he also says this:

Stantic-Pavlinic et al. (6) reported that rabies vaccine led to a substantially greater increase in interferon alpha levels in humans who had been administered 2 g of vitamin C at the time of first vaccination, compared with the control group