Vein and Arm Pain at 100 grams IV/C

[ofonorow]

Dear Owen,

Thank you for your work to expose such great information on Vitamin C therapies!

Me and my husband have begun administering intravenous vitamin C, with great joy.... as we have been fighting with horrible symptoms for so many years... We finally found what was the cause of our symptoms, and started doing the IV-s with Sodium Ascorbate as soon as we read about Dr Levy's work with Vit C.

We gradually increased the dose from 25 g to 150 g per IV, 3-4 times per week.

We are also taking liposomal Vit C during and after the IVs so we can eliminate the terrible Herxeimer. And it really works, it does miracles, as it actually wipes out any die off reaction.

The only problem we are having is that as we started high doses above 100 gr we experience intense pain in the vein and arm. And we cannot use the vein more than 2 sessions.

We are using Ringer Iv bags of 500 ml in which we introduce the Sodium Ascorbate.
How should we avoid the pain and the inflammation? Should we use 1000 ml iv bags instead?
We want to increase the dose of Sodium Ascorbate and we would like to do the sessions at least 5 times per week but it is very painful and we have to switch veins very often.

Can you please find time to answer us?


Thank you!
With great respect and appreciation,

M. and N. from Romania

[Jacquie]

I've run into the same issue. The first thing that reliably stops the vein pain is using a more dilute mixture. 100 grams of sodium ascorbate usually needs more than 500 ml of solute, in general, for me not to have vein pain (if I drip it in as fast as the vein will allow). The second thing that usually stops the pain is to run the mixture in more slowly. This can be hard, since it then takes a lot longer to get the drip done.

Now, the Riordan Clinic has this to say in their IVC Protocol instructions (for medical professionals) about vein pain during the drip:

"IV-site irritation may occur at the infusion site when given in a vein and not a port. This can be caused by an infusion rate exceeding 1.0 gram/minute. The protocol suggests adding magnesium to reduce the incidence of vein irritation and spasm."

This suggests 3 ways to avoid the pain:

1. Get an IV port. Not an option for most people.

2. Run the mixture in more slowly. Works for me when necessary, although not preferred.

3. "Add magnesium." This is probably a great option, except I am not a medical professional, and have no training in adding anything except sodium ascorbate to an IV. Frankly, I am justifiably nervous about doing IVs at all, since adding a little bit of the wrong chemical to the bag can be extremely harmful. I haven't wanted to try adding "magnesium" (what form? how much is okay, vs how much could harm or kill? what infusion rate is acceptable? etc) without knowing exactly what I was doing... and I don't.

If there are any medical professionals here who think it's a good idea for us laypeople to try adding some form of magnesium to the IVC bags to help reduce vein pain, I welcome the knowledge. If it would be bad news for us to start mucking around with it, I understand.

[ofonorow]

Dear Owen,

Thank you so much for your kind answer!
I have been reading from the forum these days and I am positive the Ringer solution is the problem!
We want to prepare the next IVs exactly as dr Cathcart and dr Levy recommend, with 50/50 sodium ascorbate and sterile water using a microfilter 0.2 microns. We also ordered a PH meter device just to make sure the PH will be correct.
I only need to know if you have any advice on preparing the sterile water at home. I have an autoclave, I know that the water must not be demineralized before sterilizing, and non-pyrogenic. Is there anything else that I am missing?

And I really need your advice on one more aspect:

Suppose we do the stock solution 50/50 and we want to do a 150 g infusion... how much sterile water should we add to the stock solution of 300 ml? What would be the most appropriate amount?

Thank YOUUU!
God bless you!

PS. Once we fully recover... you will probably hear one of the greatest stories, we will post it on the forum when at the right moment.

[Jacquie]

I don't have good advice on preparing sterile water unfortunately... I always buy it. As to the recommended dilution, Dr. Cathcart's paper said this:

The Stock Bottle of Sodium Ascorbate
Sterilize a 500 cc IV bottle along with a funnel, the rubber stopper, and a spoon. Then fill the bottle to the 300 cc line with sodium ascorbate fine crystals. (I weighed the sodium ascorbate out one time and 250 gm came up to the 300 cc line.)... Then add water for injection q.s. 500 cc. Shake up the bottle and if there is 1 mm of crystals left on the bottom, add 1 mm of water to the top. It turns out that sodium ascorbate is soluble to almost exactly a 50% concentration at room temperature...

Preparation of the IV Bottle
I recommend that the above stock bottle solution be added to lactated Ringer's such that 30 Gms (60 cc) to 60 Gms (120 cc) this be added to a quantity of lactated Ringer's sufficient to make 500 cc of the final solution to be injected IV. I had been using water for injection some time ago because this solution is several times hypertonic already and I did not want to add more tonicity. However, recently I have found that lactated Ringer's feels better to patients so I use that for the final dilution (not the stock solution described above.)

So, if you are using lactated Ringer's it appears Dr. Cathcart recommended no more than 60 grams of sodium ascorbate per 500 cc final solution. That is approximately what I have found, as well. I typically end up using no more than 100 grams per 1000 ml final solution, although according to Cathcart's instructions, you should be able to go as high as 120 grams.

The Riordan Clinic has the following recommendation:



That info is found on page 13 of "The Riordan Intravenous Vitamin C (IVC) Protocol" paper. It's a good paper to read for more info on using IVC properly.

[ofonorow]

Hi Owen,

The only real "rules" that we followed was to not make any IV too hypo-osmolar, i.e., too little VC for a large amount of water.

I have given 500 mg/cc (stock solution) direct IV slow push in the past.

So, you need more than 25 grams for a 500 or 1000 cc bag, but 50 to 100 will serve for
a 500 bag, and 100 to 150 can work for a 500 or 1000 cc bag.

Of course, this drives many people crazy who must follow a precise formula.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy

[High Sierra Medical]

Some tips for IV C.

Arm pain is related to two things:

1) Hydration status of the client. A relatively (even slightly) dehydrated person will have more dull discomfort.
2) The concentration of C in the vein. This can be rapidly relieved by carefully raising the affected arm.

[sasam]

Some tips for IV C.

Arm pain is related to two things:

1) Hydration status of the client. A relatively (even slightly) dehydrated person will have more dull discomfort.
2) The concentration of C in the vein. This can be rapidly relieved by carefully raising the affected arm.

If #1 is the case, a quick remedy is to first infuse a Lactate ringer bag prior to IVC infusion. [Edit: actually a saline bag may be better.]

And add to the above:
3) pH of the final IV solution (if pH is too low, pain can occur from sclerosis)
Possible #4) Osmolarity (hypo-osmolarity is detrimental, but does it cause direct venous pain?)