ph of the injection

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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perico
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ph of the injection

Post Number:#1  Post by perico » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:35 am

Hi everyone,

We are having trouble with the solution's pH. With a solution of 50g of sodium ascorbate, purity of 100% according to the technical sheet (we buy the powder in a compounding pharmacy), on 500ml of normal saline we get a 6,0 pH. Impossible for us to reach the 7,4 or superior that Carthcart, Levy, eDOC and others reach.

What is going wrong?

If we use water for injection we have the same problem. Both, water for injection and NS are slightly acid, over 5,5 pH. It seems impossible that 50g of sodium ascorbate will rise the 5,5 pH of 500ml of NS or wfi to 7,5. There is some mathematical expressions to calculate this, but I can ensure that because I was making trials with a pH tester on different quantities of NS, wfi, Sodium ascorbate an sodium bicarbonate, and I can conclude that a concentration of over 10% w/w of sodium ascorbate on NS or wfi do not reach a total pH 7,0 by far.

With this pH the injection, over time, becomes harmful in veins, and we cannot inject all the vitamin C that we want.

We have not added to the solution calcium gluconate yet. We hope that the gluconate will alkalize de solution but we suppose that one gram hardly will raise the solution's pH.

Can you help us?

Regards.
Last edited by perico on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

eDOC
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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#2  Post by eDOC » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:44 am

Perico you know I don't go by Cathcart's method. Don't know what Levy does.

Which state are you in?

Follow one method, don't try mixing 2 different protocol techniques. (My advice.)

I feel that is the reason for a low pH. Can make a 100 gms IVC in 15 mins with a pH of 7.4, its no rocket science. At times I don't even check the pH in these yrs, cause I know it's gonna be 7.4 at least & it ALWAYS is!

As posted earlier I taught you all, but you are still unclear or confused......may be cause my English isn't good enough.

Hope Owen or David can help/assist in resolving this pH issue, cause both are full of knowledge combined with perfect English.

Regards!
Rookie, rusty, sub average doc but one that gives results!

perico
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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#3  Post by perico » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:33 am

Hi eDOC,

I'm from Spain and my English is poor too but I think we are doing well :wink:

What is the composition of the final solution that you inject? If I'm right you inject 100g of sodium ascorbate on 1000ml of NS. RIght? And with this solution do you get a 7,4 pH?

Do you know the pH of the NS solution that you use?

Thanks as always, eDOC!

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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#4  Post by eDOC » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:47 am

Hello again Perico,

Nice to know that you are from Spain (Madrid or Barcelona).

What is the composition of the final solution that you inject? If I'm right you inject 100g of sodium ascorbate on 1000ml of NS. RIght? And with this solution do you get a 7,4 pH?


Correct!


Do you know the pH of the NS solution that you use?

7.4.

Always welcome.

Regards!
Rookie, rusty, sub average doc but one that gives results!

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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#5  Post by davids1 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:36 pm

Hi Perico,

I am not a doctor like eDoc [and Johnwen]. That notwithstanding, here are a few thoughts and suggestions for what they might be worth to you:

Pure distilled water has a pH of exactly 7.0. However, if the water pH is low, it is very easy to raise it using either sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydroxide.

If it were me, I would make my own sodium ascorbate [vs. getting it from a compounding pharmacy], by using 5 parts of ascorbic acid to 2 parts of sodium bicarbonate. You can then mix the solution up [and test the pH] and vary the sodium bicarbonate [and/or ascorbic acid] amount(s) to exactly the pH you are looking for. The pH of 7.4 that eDoc recommends sounds perfect to me, although a little higher, e.g. 7.5 and even maybe 7.6, for a short period of time would probably be additionally beneficial [healthwise]! Further [as an aside], if it were me, I would use sodium hydroxide instead of sodium bicarbonate, but I do not know the the approximate amount/ratio, i.e. it is vastly more alkaline than sodium bicarbonate, and therefore you would need considerably less.

Frankly, I do not understand your having problems getting the pH as high as you want! Am I missing something?

I hope this helps, Perico, and I wish you the best of success!

Sincerely,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#6  Post by perico » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:29 am

Hi,

-eDOC: The NS that we can get here in the market has a pH between 5,5 and 6,5 (mainly 5,5, rarely 6,5), could you tell me with which substances can we buffer to reach the 7,4? We would need too, the maximum quantities of the buffers to feel confident. I'm form the periphery of Spain eDOC, but I usually go to Madrid. You are from China right? but do you work in the US?

-Hi David, thanks for your response. You are right, pure distilled water has a pH of 7,0, but when it comes in contact with the air, because of having 0 osm/L, the carbon dioxide tends to dissolve in the water making carbonic acid, that makes the water acidic with the habitual pH of around 5,5 of water for injection.

We need to know how to use those buffer solutions, We do not know which quantities can we use with security. For example, I have read that intravenous sodium bicarbonate must not be used every day for long periods of time, but we need to make the vitamin C infusions with high doses of sodium ascorbate daily. Sodium hydroxide is very harmful if not used with care. We have to be confident about the secure quantities to start using them.

We really appreciate your answers, they are very helpful for us. Hope you can help.

Regards.

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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#7  Post by davids1 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:40 am

Hi Perico,

You are most welcome.

Whatever method you use [that you are confident in] to monitor the pH of your IV solution(s), is it not a simple matter to add enough alkali, e.g. bicarbonate or hydroxide, to bring the pH [of the solution(s)] up to the level you are looking for? You wrote:
I have read that intravenous sodium bicarbonate must not be used every day for long periods of time...
I believe, Perico, this has to do with warning a person not to over-alkalinize their blood [please, anyone here correct me if they see it differently]. If you are monitoring the pH of your solution(s), this will not be a factor, e.g. it is my understanding that [healthy] human blood is generally around a pH of 7.35 to 7.45.

Sodium hydroxide has the advantage of not overloading the body with sodium. A little experimentation would quickly tell you how much to use to get the pH where you want it. On the other hand, sodium bicarbonate is the primary alkaline buffer produced by/in the body, so that may be the most "natural" [of the two, to use]. Either way, Perico, even with a daily IV, you would not be introducing that much alkali into the body [compared to what is already, i.e, always, there], i.e. as long as the pH is near the range above. As an aside, if it were me, I would want my IV to be near the upper pH range.

Just trying to help, Perico, and I wish you the best of success!

Sincerely,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#8  Post by eDOC » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:17 pm

-eDOC: The NS that we can get here in the market has a pH between 5,5 and 6,5 (mainly 5,5, rarely 6,5), could you tell me with which substances can we buffer to reach the 7,4? We would need too, the maximum quantities of the buffers to feel confident. I'm form the periphery of Spain eDOC, but I usually go to Madrid. You are from China right? but do you work in the US?



Have my own methods to get a 7.4 pH NS and ask the pharmaceuticals to make custom tailored IV NS with a 7.4 pH, in bulk.

I am based at a lot of places (even Spain), or you want to know my nationality........ China, Asia, Europe & yes I work in the US too.

David answered most of your questions in depth, go by what he suggested. He is very knowledgeable, unlike me.

If you still have queries, like earlier PM or Skype.

Regards Perico!
Rookie, rusty, sub average doc but one that gives results!

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Re: ph of the injection

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:49 am

Hi everyone,

We are having trouble with the solution's pH. With a solution of 50g of sodium ascorbate, purity of 100% according to the technical sheet (we buy the powder in a compounding pharmacy), on 500ml of normal saline we get a 6,0 pH. Impossible for us to reach the 7,4 or superior that Carthcart, Levy, eDOC and others reach.

What is going wrong?


Sorry for being late. Is your ratio 50/50? Cathcart mixed 250 grams of sodium ascorbate with 250 grams of sterile water providing 500 CC "stock solution".

He claims, like eDOC, that this always measures a pH of 7.4. http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf

So first thing looks to be that instead of 250 grams of sodium ascorbate with 500 ml (500 cc) you are only using 50 mg of sodium ascorbate. If this is true then this is your pH problem.

Cathcart's method is to produce a "stock solution" that is added to the standard IV bag. By volume, 50% is vitamin C, so if you wanted to create a 50 gram IV/C - you would add 100 grams of the "stock solution" to an IV bag.
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