Ketosis

[AnaKat]

I'm just wondering why it is important to stay out of ketosis when using the B5 protocol? Thanks!

[johnjackson]

I'm just wondering why it is important to stay out of ketosis when using the B5 protocol? Thanks!

It's not

losing weight is dependant on calories, not if you are in ketosis


From lyle mcdonald, the guy who wrote the bible on ketogenic diets( the ketogenic diet)
https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-C ... 0967145600


gives you a chart (at the end) where he compares diets and then tells you how many carbs you need
https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ ... rt-1.html/

tl;dr
if you are active, eat carbs
if you watch tv all day, dont
https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ ... rt-4.html/

[ofonorow]

Apologies, the last post was mostly "bull crap" and didn't answer the question, despite the reference to a guru.

AnaKat wrote:
I'm just wondering why it is important to stay out of ketosis when using the B5 protocol? Thanks!

If you are following the high B5 protocol for weight loss, as invented by Hong Kong doctor H. Leung, then if you enter ketosis, you would know that you are not taking enough vitamin B5.

Leung's discovery and theory is that when the body produces ketone bodies, it is stealing CoEnzyme A from other metabolites, producing ketone bodies as a byproduct. However, if there is enough CoA (and for that there must be enough B5 in the diet) the body does not have to steal CoA, so the ketone byproducts are not produced. (I can quote Dr. Leung on this from his papers, but I'm not sure it will be much clearer.)

To my knowledge, the idea that the production of ketone bodies is a byproduct of a coenzyme A deficiency, resulting from a vitamin B5 deficiency is original and no one else discusses this idea. Everyone else considers ketosis a "normal" product of fat metabolism.

Leung tested his theory, and ran a study of 100 people over the course of 1 year. The diet would usually put the subject in ketosis in 1 or 2 days, but while on the 10,000 (some times 20,000) mg of vitamin B5, these subjects were monitored but did not go into ketosis.

[johnjackson]

[johnjackson]

Im not one to cherry pick what i learn
I am always open to new stuff, I am very open minded

THat being said, I am also friends with Kelly Bagget
KElly is knowledgable about food/weighloss/muscle gain, but he is mostly into sports perfoomance stuff,. his vertical leap bible is huge
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljump.html

also many articles about stuff
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/articles.html

Ive been buds with him for 15 yrs and when I asked him about what Owen said,
Ie
Leung's discovery and theory is that when the body produces ketone bodies, it is stealing CoEnzyme A from other metabolites, producing ketone bodies as a byproduct. However, if there is enough CoA (and for that there must be enough B5 in the diet) the body does not have to steal CoA, so the ketone byproducts are not produced. (I can quote Dr. Leung on this from his papers, but I'm not sure it will be much clearer.)

To my knowledge, the idea that the production of ketone bodies is a byproduct of a coenzyme A deficiency, resulting from a vitamin B5 deficiency is original and no one else discusses this idea. Everyone else considers ketosis a "normal" product of fat metabolism.

Leung tested his theory, and ran a study of 100 people over the course of 1 year. The diet would usually put the subject in ketosis in 1 or 2 days, but while on the 10,000 (some times 20,000) mg of vitamin B5, these subjects were monitored but did not go into ketosis

Kelly said:
He could be right but I don't think theres any benefit from NOT going into ketosis. That's kinda no mans land in ketosis energy goes up, appetite goes down etc. If you're eating low carb and not in ketosis you will probably feel like absolute s##t and be totally starving


Now the guy I usuallyt refer to is Lyle Mcdonald, he is known as "the keto guy" cause of his first book, "ketogenic diet" , which is all about keto diets/science, dieting, muscle gain just not anything to with preventing seizures
https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-C ... 0967145600

basically that book is a more compicated version of his PSMF book
both say, low calories, very little/no cardio, weight training , some basic nutrients(MG/ W-3s, )

wow, how things have changed though butI'm not reading anything about Leungs diet being so great? I dont understand what makes it special?
low calories/no ketosis=weight loss
low calores/ketosis=weight loss

[ofonorow]

Ive been buds with him for 15 yrs and when I asked him about what Owen said,
Ie
Leung's discovery and theory is that when the body produces ketone bodies, it is stealing CoEnzyme A from other metabolites, producing ketone bodies as a byproduct. However, if there is enough CoA (and for that there must be enough B5 in the diet) the body does not have to steal CoA, so the ketone byproducts are not produced. (I can quote Dr. Leung on this from his papers, but I'm not sure it will be much clearer.)

To my knowledge, the idea that the production of ketone bodies is a byproduct of a coenzyme A deficiency, resulting from a vitamin B5 deficiency is original and no one else discusses this idea. Everyone else considers ketosis a "normal" product of fat metabolism.

Correct.

Leung tested his theory, and ran a study of 100 people over the course of 1 year. The diet would usually put the subject in ketosis in 1 or 2 days, but while on the 10,000 (some times 20,000) mg of vitamin B5, these subjects were monitored but did not go into ketosis

Kelly said:
He could be right but I don't think theres any benefit from NOT going into ketosis. That's kinda no mans land in ketosis energy goes up, appetite goes down etc. If you're eating low carb and not in ketosis you will probably feel like absolute s##t and be totally starving

Not so cogent. If there is/was benefit to ketosis, ask your expert why the the Intuit evolved a gene so these fat-eaters cannot go into Ketosis. (There is a Masterjohn youtube on this.).

In the Leung study the only side effect of 10,000 mg vitamin B5 (on a 1000 calorie diet) was an increased feeling of well-being. None of the 100 participants felt like s??T, just the opposite! And none entered ketosis.

wow, how things have changed though butI'm not reading anything about Leungs diet being so great? I dont understand what makes it special?
low calories/no ketosis=weight loss
low calores/ketosis=weight loss

There is no "Leung diet." He didn't specify the diet, only that it was carefully planned to provide adequate nutrition and that it contained 1000 calories per day. In the paper, Leung said that the diet would normally cause people to enter ketosis in 2 to 3 days. While the weight-loss/ketosis angle seems to be generally unknown, there are alternative doctors applying high vitamin B5 for his other discovery, that acne was also a fault of lipid metabolism, same coA deficieny problem, and can be cured with high vitamin B5.

We have made contact with Peter Defty, who trains champion ultra marathon (100 mile) athletes by helping them become "fat adapted." An athlete that burns fats, rather than carbs, has a reserve of 40000 KCal (body fat) versus 2000 KCal (glycogen stores). Now these athlete's ketosis is already quite low, but we have been discussing Leung's theory, and Peter has agreed to help us evaluate high vitamin B5 on himself and his Ultra atheletes. (Normally, an athlete requires 2 to 3 weeks to become "keto" or fat adapted. We are wondering if high B5 can reduce that changeover, perhaps make fat burning almost instantaneous. In any event, we should know soon if high vitamin B5 can make super fat-burning athletes even better.

[johnjackson]

There is no "Leung diet." He didn't specify the diet, only that it was carefully planned to provide adequate nutrition and that it contained 1000 calories per day. In the paper, Leung said that the diet would normally cause people to enter ketosis in 2 to 3 days. While the weight-loss/ketosis angle seems to be generally unknown, there are alternative doctors applying high vitamin B5 for his other discovery, that acne was also a fault of lipid metabolism, same coA deficieny problem, and can be cured with high vitamin B5.

We have made contact with Peter Defty, who trains champion ultra marathon (100 mile) athletes by helping them become "fat adapted." An athlete that burns fats, rather than carbs, has a reserve of 40000 KCal (body fat) versus 2000 KCal (glycogen stores). Now these athlete's ketosis is already quite low, but we have been discussing Leung's theory, and Peter has agreed to help us evaluate high vitamin B5 on himself and his Ultra atheletes. (Normally, an athlete requires 2 to 3 weeks to become "keto" or fat adapted. We are wondering if high B5 can reduce that changeover, perhaps make fat burning almost instantaneous. In any event, we should know soon if high vitamin B5 can make super fat-burning athletes even better.

it seems I am not getting what is going on here
what is the point of extra B5?
I THINK that you are
cause it prevents going into ketosis?
and by puttings people on a low carb diet they can burn fat,,,unlike a carb based diet where a person won't burn fat, they burn carbs, and then when they run out of carbs/glycogen, they do what?
are you telling me that you can only burn glycogen or fat, and the only way to lose fat is to not have any glycogen in the body?


I would love to think more B5 would have some great fat burning properties
I have only heard of/used ancillaries such as
clenbutoral
2,4 dinitrophenol
epherdrine/caffenine stack
bitter orange synephrine
nicotine

clenbutoral sucks as it only works for a limited time befre you have to cylcle on/off , Clenbuterol, a beta-adrenoceptor agonist, c lenbuterol rapidly reduces the number of beta-2 receptors
DNP--uncouples the electron transport chain, so you dont make ATP, you just make heat and can die if you take too much....11% increase in BMR/100mg or something super awesome s##t if you can take the side effeects( and you have no energry unless you also take:
epinefrine/caffeine stacks

most of the stuff, aside from DNP, works by making you NOT hungery
NIcotine is the most known agent that kills appetite, this is why(partially) smokers who quit smoking, gain weight
nicotine increases DA in the brain and makes you not hungry
food does the same thing, only it can make you fat

Id love more b5 to help me shed fat , but it's not going to
the 1000 calories/day(and here I thought you said counting calories didnt give weight loss!!) is going to work
just like it did on the HCG diet---https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/hcg-diet-101
or any diet that causes weight loss

[ofonorow]

it seems I am not getting what is going on here

yes, I think that is entirely true.

what is the point of extra B5?
I THINK that you are
cause it prevents going into ketosis?

No, it is because people taking 10 g of vitamin B5 on a very low calorie diet do not experience hunger or weakness. (Not going into ketosis is a nice by-product, indicating a more efficient fat burn)

and by puttings people on a low carb diet they can burn fat,,,unlike a carb based diet where a person won't burn fat, they burn carbs, and then when they run out of carbs/glycogen, they do what?
are you telling me that you can only burn glycogen or fat, and the only way to lose fat is to not have any glycogen in the body?

You are very confused. Essentially yes, the body burns either carbs (glucose) or fats.

And it can burn both at the same time. Different parts of the body can be burning fats (e.g. muscles) while the brain/nerves are still using sugars. (Another confounding factor is the body can make glucose out of protein. We'll ignore that for now.)

But if someone is eating carbs, there is no danger of running out of glucose/glycogen, capice?

We know that people can become fat adapted, ketogenic, and still have glycogen and fairly normal blood sugar levels. The body, usually muscles, are simply not using the glucose in the blood stream.

I would love to think more B5 would have some great fat burning properties

Why would you love that?

I have only heard of/used ancillaries such as
clenbutoral
2,4 dinitrophenol
epherdrine/caffenine stack
bitter orange synephrine
nicotine

According to Volek/Phinney, the experts who wrote the book THE ART OF LOW CARBOHYDRATE PERFORMANCE, all these things, e.g. caffeine, etc. are secondary, and proportionally of very little consequence. The trick is to reorient the body from carb burning to fat burning. These experts tell us that takes 2 or 3 weeks on a low carb diet for the body to become "fat adapted."

Id love more b5 to help me shed fat , but it's not going to
the 1000 calories/day(and here I thought you said counting calories didnt give weight loss!!) is going to work
just like it did on the HCG diet---https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/hcg-diet-101
or any diet that causes weight loss

As usual, you keep missing the point. Few, if any, people can maintain a 1000 calorie per day for a year. Why? Because of hunger and weakness. If someone could, I agree, they wouldn't necessarily need extra mega vitamin B5. B5 helps the body adjust to a low calorie diet, and encourages efficient fat burning (and yes, without the inefficient production of ketone bodies).

And for the upteenth time, of course your body will start burning stored energy when the need for energy exceeds the amount of energy (calories) eaten. Duh. Never denied that, only that that need changes over time. So someone on a low calorie diet will eventually start to gain weight - unless the body weight set point is adjusted.

[johnjackson]

s usual, you keep missing the point. Few, if any, people can maintain a 1000 calorie per day for a year. Why? Because of hunger and weakness. If someone could, I agree, they wouldn't necessarily need extra mega vitamin B5. B5 helps the body adjust to a low calorie diet, and encourages efficient fat burning (and yes, without the inefficient production of ketone bodies).

And for the upteenth time, of course your body will start burning stored energy when the need for energy exceeds the amount of energy (calories) eaten. Duh. Never denied that, only that that need changes over time. So someone on a low calorie diet will eventually start to gain weight - unless the body weight set point is adjusted.

that is a bit harsh.,"as usual"

you think your diet will get people lean by adding B5, not becuase it helps burn more calories, but because when people diet, they get,"hunger and weakness"
LOLZ I admit, you cracked me up with that one!

so you are saying that more B5 will help people avoid "hunger/weakness" which is why they can't stay on a diet?

why do you eat? do you eat only cause you are hungry? or is eating FUN? or what we do socially?

I never said, only eat X number of calories forever, as I explained to you, but you deleted or just ignored.

if your body is on a non sugar diet, so you have no glucose, the ketones are made for the brain to eat
the brain doesnt run on anything cept glucose.sugars or KETONES,right
yeah, you said counting calories was going to end up in failure


love to see anything that says you are changing the body's set point
but you arent talking about set point, your claim is more b vitamins will help keep somone on a diet cause it won't allow them to be "weak or get hungry".....
I'm gonna start having out B vitamin packets to co-workers at lunch, no reason to eat food, take some B-vitamins!!

[ofonorow]

I'll go through another long response with little content (sorry)

you think your diet will get people lean by adding B5, not because it helps burn more calories, but because when people diet, they get,"hunger and weakness"
LOLZ I admit, you cracked me up with that one!

Did you read Dr. Leung's studies? (I suspect not). Here are Leung's papers

A Stone that Kills two Birds: How Pantothenic Acid Unveils the Mysteries of Acne Vulgaris and Obesity
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1997/pdf/1997-v12n02-p099.pdf

Pantothenic acid as a weight-reducing agent: Fasting without hunger, weakness and ketosis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0306987795902686

Here, I wish to propose a theory that relates the formation of ketone bodies under such conditions to a deficiency in dietary pantothenic acid. Supplementation of this vitamin would facilitate complete catabolism of fatty acids and thus the formation of ketone bodies could be circumvented. As a result, a sufficient amount of energy would be released from storage fat to relieve dieters of the sensation of hunger and weakness which otherwise would be difficult to endure.

so you are saying that more B5 will help people avoid "hunger/weakness" which is why they can't stay on a diet?

This is what Leung theorized and studied. We have also verified "no hunger, no weakness" effect while fasting on high B5.

why do you eat? do you eat only cause you are hungry? or is eating FUN? or what we do socially?

And this is relevant how?

I never said, only eat X number of calories forever, as I explained to you, but you deleted or just ignored.

Beg your pardon, but that is all you say - quoting your gurus that calories are all that matter.

How are you modifying that stance?

if your body is on a non sugar diet, so you have no glucose,

No, does not follow. For one thing, there is gluconeogenesis. Glucose can be made out of amino acids...
How do the Intuit Eskimos survive? Almost no carb diet long term?

the ketones are made for the brain to eat

This theory is obviously wrong - given that Intuit eskimos evolved a gene so they never go into ketosis. All they eat is fat/blubber.

According to Leung, ketones are made because the body requires Coenzyme A, but has run out! So it metabolizes more CoA out of another metabolite, creating ketones as a by-product. Leungs study proves you too can be like the Intuit Eskimos - go low carb, burn fat, but not go into ketosis.

the brain doesnt run on anything cept glucose.sugars or KETONES,right

This theory is probably wrong. I will concede that ketosis (ketone bodies in the blood) can apparently keep diabetics with low blood sugar out of a coma. I am not aware of any direct experiments showing that the brain cannot "fat adapt" and burn fat for energy like other tissues. (But I am willing to be educated.) A confusion may be that it takes time, maybe 2 to 3 weeks for the human body to become "fat adapted. We think we may be learning that providing high vitamin B5 - a direct coenzyme A precursor - may speed up the time to fat adapt, so we may have a potential way to find out if a brain can switch to burning fat in days, rather than weeks.

yeah, you said counting calories was going to end up in failure

Right.. Counting isn't the issue. But going on a diet to reduce calories will inevitably fail over time, unless the body weight set point is readjusted in the brain. Fung cites experiments were prisoners were overfed to gain weight, and after the over feeding stopped, the prisoners all lost weight on their normal diet until they reached their "weight set point."

love to see anything that says you are changing the body's set point

Doubt you mean this, but if you do, simply watch Jason Fung MD's youtubes on Intermittent fasting, or read his book THE OBESITY CODE. (In review, he is a kidney specialist. Most of his patients had Type 2 diabetes - hurting their kidney function. He noticed that when Type II's lose weight, their diabetes resolves. So he focused on the science of weight loss. Great info, and his research led him to intermittent fasting - as a way to keep insulin levels low "most of the time" leading to a lowering of the body weight set point.

but you arent talking about set point, your claim is more b vitamins will help keep somone on a diet cause it won't allow them to be "weak or get hungry".....
I'm gonna start having out B vitamin packets to co-workers at lunch, no reason to eat food, take some B-vitamins!!

As crazy as this sounds, you aren't far off. You are describing fasting, and yes, B5 will help with fasting, although once the body has fat adapted, meaning has begun burning fat rather than carbs, hunger and weakness generally subside.

And vitamin B packets aren't the ticket. They probably contain 5 mg of B5. We are talking 10 grams, or 10,000 mg of vitamin B5

[johnjackson]

Right.. Counting isn't the issue. But going on a diet to reduce calories will inevitably fail over time, unless the body weight set point is readjusted in the brain. Fung cites experiments were prisoners were overfed to gain weight, and after the over feeding stopped, the prisoners all lost weight on their normal diet until they reached their "weight set point."

but you arent talking about set point, your claim is more b vitamins will help keep somone on a diet cause it won't allow them to be "weak or get hungry".....
I'm gonna start having out B vitamin packets to co-workers at lunch, no reason to eat food, take some B-vitamins!!

As crazy as this sounds, you aren't far off. You are describing fasting, and yes, B5 will help with fasting, although once the body has fat adapted, meaning has begun burning fat rather than carbs, hunger and weakness generally subside.

And vitamin B packets aren't the ticket. They probably contain 5 mg of B5. We are talking 10 grams, or 10,000 mg of vitamin B5

Yes I am really interested in this and will read the links you gave me when I can
I never said "count calories and only eat X calories FOREVER"
-no, you count calories to know how many you are eating and burn more than you eat
-then you adjust that as you gain muscle or lose fat
the occasional re-feed/diet break is key to keep losing fat

but if you only at 1,000 day AND did exercise(like walking) you'd keep losing fat, which I showed you in the Minnesota starvation study
you havent shown me how eating in a deficit FOREVER is going to lead to you getting fatter??
--but I'm not saying diet forever, never have and I've never said keep only eating X calories..
diets ALWAYS Work, if you stick to them,....that's the rub, people dont or some people do< people like Clarence Bass, 82 yo bodybuilder, been sub 10% bodyfat most of his life

yeah, i worked for an endocrine MD and diabetes was his focus and losing weight resolves t2d usuallym not sure how this pertains to anything
what is "fat adapted"?

people have to be on low carbs to lose fat?

not at all..

again, this dude lost fat while eating high sugar/fat junk food
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/tw ... index.html
it was measured.
and he counted calories

simple calorie restcition works well to lose weight
and then making sure you dont eat too much helps keep the weight off

you are telling me that B vitamins(grams) will make you not hungry?
what else do b vitamins do?
the whole change your set point is nonsense, diet coke will change your set point
so will EC stack or nicotine,, if my "change your set point" you mean make you not hungry

[johnjackson]

Or maybe taking whatever will work if you think it does

this pill will make you not hungry and hepl you stay on your diet, then it might

remember the HCG diet from years ago?


placebo effect is very real

2. Doctors Prescribe Real Medication for Its Placebo Effect (and It Works)

l

https://www.cracked.com/article_21932_7 ... doing.html

And doctors realize it, too -- a 2007 study in Chicago found that about half of them admit to prescribing medically useless treatments in the hopes of inducing a placebo effect. You can see this in the widespread prescribing of antibiotics to treat colds, despite having no real effect on those sorts of infections. If the patient thinks it will help, it might, so what's the harm?

[ofonorow]

people have to be on low carbs to lose fat?

To review, either High Fat/Low Carbs, or Low Fat/ High Carbs - just not High Fat/High Carbs... Next case is interesting

again, this dude lost fat while eating high sugar/fat junk food
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/tw ... index.html
it was measured. and he counted calories

I get a "page not found" following your link, but I doubt he lost fat! I'll make a prediction that his weight now, is higher than when he started

simple calorie restcition works well to lose weight
and then making sure you dont eat too much helps keep the weight off

he he he.. That the point - the "make sure you don't eat to much".. is nearly impossible, so every diet fails (over time) because you have to keep eating less and less to maintain the same weight loss effect. Can't even keep the same weight, thus making dieters think they fail because they don't have enough self control. They fail because their body is slowing to maintain their body weight set point.

you are telling me that B vitamins(grams) will make you not hungry?
what else do b vitamins do?

Why do you keep saying "B vitamins"? We are talking about one B vitamin, Pantothenic Acid (vitamin B5) or pantethine.

the whole change your set point is nonsense, diet coke will change your set point
so will EC stack or nicotine,, if my "change your set point" you mean make you not hungry

And you base this on what, your feeling? You admit you haven't read Fung.

If the body weight set point is nonsense, why do dieters reach plateaus? Why when you eat more, gain weight, and stop the extra, do you lose weight back to your normal? Ditto with eating less. Why do almost all normal diets FAIL? Again, we point to the Biggest Losers as the clearest example of how massive body weight loss fails over time.

You might be correct that if your diet was entirely Diet Coke, and if diet coke doesn't induce an insulin response (assumed but unknown, because even filling the stomach can induce some level of insulin) then yes, a diet consisting only of Diet Coke (plus multi vitamins/minerals to otherwise sustain life) is like a fast, and should alter the body weight set point.

[johnjackson]

[ofonorow]