Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

[angiew]

Hi All,

Vit c, lysine or proline ...

I know that one should always take all 3 for Pauling/Rath therapy but which of the 3 is most important for heart and plaque issues?

thanks

[randian]

I'd say C is most important for general health. If you're worried about cost, lysine and proline can be had cheap in bulk. I take approximately 4920mg lysine and 1640mg proline daily, which by my calculations costs 16.8 cents per day. Mix them with the right foods (I'm partial to tomato soup) and they don't even taste bad.

[ofonorow]

Here is what we think we know based on the very first case Linus Pauling published and relates on the Unified Theory video.

Vitamin C (around 5000 mg) can keep a heart patient alive, but this amount by itself doesn't generally reverse heart disease (at least in 10 to 30 days!).

The requirement for vitamin C is based on our body's requirements to make its own collagen, and I agree with randian that it is the most important for fighting cardiovascular disease. In every case, it is essential to take vitamin C in the dosages Linus Pauling recommended. The Pauling/Rath theory is that our inability to make our own vitamin c, like other animals can, leads to weak arteries that tend to crack over time because of the mechanical forces of the heart beat. Lp(a) cholesterol has evolved, according to Pauling, as an alternative to strong arteries, as Lp(a) leads to the white "plaster casts" of atherosclerosis.

Second, is lysine - the only other recommendation that Pauling made that I am aware of. Lysine in theory can reverse Lp(a) plaques at high enough dosages. This was the moral of the first case. The National Science Medal winner who was taking 5 grams of vitamin c, but had difficulty walking across the room. Alive but not well. When Pauling suggested that he add 5 grams of lysine, the man improved to the point of chopping wood in 30 days.

In theory taking only high lysine (but not high vitamin C) would be unwise - as the plaques that are acting as surrogates for low vitamin C might dissolve.

Proline was recommended to augment lysine by Matthias Rath, MD. It is also known that the University of Chicago researchers found the proline binding site on Lp(a) that are analogous to the lysine binding sites. Both amino acids can work to destroy Lp(a) but I have concerns about patients with coronary bypass graphs taking proline because these vein graphs may rely on Lp(a) to keep them strong and clear. Proline seems to be that factor that can lower or eliminate Lp(a) in the blood.

[randian]

Owen, did you mean "grafts" when you said "graphs"?

[davids1]

I'd just like to add to a point that Owen referred to, when he wrote

Vitamin C (around 5000 mg) can keep a heart patient alive, but this amount by itself doesn't generally reverse heart disease (at least in 10 to 30 days!).

While I agree, I feel it is worth noting the following from Stone

...atherosclerosis was induced in guinea pigs by depriving them of ascorbic acid. Some guinea pigs were then given large doses of ascorbic acid and it was found that in these animals the beginning atherosclerotic lesions were rapidly resorbed while the more advanced atherosclerotic plaques on the artery walls took longer. There was a steady decline in the incidence of the lesions in direct proportion to the duration of ascorbic acid therapy.

In other words, if given enough time, and enough ascorbic acid is ingested, it alone [apparently] is capable of reversing atherosclerosis. I am not suggesting that the addition of lysine and/or proline might not improve the speed of this process, only that ascorbic acid alone appears to be able to do the trick [IF one is able to ingest enough].

Just my viewpoint and "two cents worth,"

David

[angiew]

Hi,

Thanks all for the feedback.

Now let me see if I get this:

the vit c collagen making ability replaces the the lpa when taken in high enough doses and to begin to reverse plaque and help heal the heart a minimum vit c dosage starts at around 10 grams daily, correct?

[tjohnson_nb]

Hi,

Thanks all for the feedback.

Now let me see if I get this:

the vit c collagen making ability replaces the the lpa when taken in high enough doses and to begin to reverse plaque and help heal the heart a minimum vit c dosage starts at around 10 grams daily, correct?

Why not use the bowel tolerance method, then you know you are getting optimal amount? Your daily requirements of C could be anywhere from 3 - 100 gms depending on whats going on at a given time.

[Johnwen]

[angiew]

Johnwen,

wow..thanks for the analysis...got to get my thinking cap on....lol.

what about reversing plaque and not just stopping the progression of the damage?

"So to summarize using the Pauling/Rath method gives the body the elements need to produce strong cell adhesion. However the components also have the capabilities of stopping the progression of any damage that has started."

[ofonorow]

what about reversing plaque and not just stopping the progression of the damage?

While I agree with davids1 in theory, as Pauling's first case illustrated, the scientist was taking 5000 mg of vitamin C daily and still had difficulty walking across the room. It was only after Pauling suggested adding 5000 mg of lysine that the man started chopping wood within one month.

Lysine is Pauling's great non-toxic, non prescription invention for reversing atherosclerosis (in conjunction with vitamin C). These words are from the Linus Pauling video lecture on the Unified Theory of Heart Disease (1992)

"Many investigators contributed to demonstrating that it is lipoprotein(a) that is deposited in plaques, not merely LDL, but lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a) for short. If you have more than 20 mg/dl in the blood it begins to deposit plaques and causes atherosclerosis. The question then is: What causes Lp(a) to stick to the wall of the artery and form these plaques?

"Countless biochemists and chemists discovered what in the wall of the artery causes Lp(a) to adhere and form atherosclerotic plaques and ultimately lead to heart disease, strokes, and peripheral arterial disease. The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine - which is one of the twenty amino acids that binds the Lp(a) and causes atherosclerotic plaques to develop. I THINK IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT DISCOVERY."

"Knowing that lysyl residues are what causes Lp(a) to stick to the wall of the artery and form atherosclerotic plaques, any physical chemist would say at once that to prevent that put the amino acid lysine in the blood to a greater extent than it is normally. You need lysine, it is essential, you have to get about 1 gram a day to keep in protein balance, but we can take lysine, pure lysine, a perfectly non toxic substance as supplements, which puts extra lysine molecules in the blood. They enter into competition with the lysyl residues on the wall of arteries and accordingly count to prevent Lp(a) from being deposited, or even will work to pull it loose and destroy atherosclerotic plaques."

- Linus Pauling (From the Linus Pauling Video on Heart Disease, 1992)

[davids1]

...as Pauling's first case illustrated, the scientist was taking 5000 mg of vitamin C daily and still had difficulty walking across the room.

And so the need [from my view] to always be taking a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid/ascorbate.

But I certainly do not disagree with anything in Owen's post [nor Pauling's findings/discoveries].

[ofonorow]

And I don't disagree with you. Just want to make it clear that the lysine invention is based on Chemistry.

Now for the sake of argument, what if the C bowel tolerance is round 200 mg (like my father) !?

[davids1]

Hi Owen,

My view, would be that his GI Tract [like most people's] is clogged up, so that it takes very little ascorbic acid to start the cleaning process. My view would be that this cleansing is a very good thing, healthwise, and that he is headed for trouble [healthwise], if he does not get on it [and soon]. Further, that if he perseveres in taking whatever amount he successfully can, i.e. his Bowel Tolerance amount, he will see that amount [gradulally] increase [along with his overall health].

Just my view [based on study and experience, but that certainly does not prove it to be true].

Best,

David

[ofonorow]

My father's extremely low bowel tolerance, as well as my half-brother Mike Till's low tolerance has kept things in perspective for me.

We share similar DNA, and I can tolerate 15-20 g of vitamin C daily - like Pauling.

My father would be on the pot all day if he exceeded 1/5 of one gram ( 200 mgs!) (He rarely got colds). Now my father like his brothers and sisters died of a massive heart attack caused by ischemic heart disease in 1989. ( If Lypo-C has been around back then, he would be old, but perhaps still with us.)

Some individuals are strictly rate limited, and using bowel tolerance for them does not confer adequate vitamin C.

My contention is that life in general did not evolve to obtain vitamin C by mouth. Most species make it and it goes directly into the blood stream. What they eat is a little extra. (If it were enough, over time, most species would have lost the ability to make it as we/they have lost the ability to make other vitamins.)

We humans must get all the vitamin C we need by mouth, and there are individuals who are unable to absorb much through their digestive tract, e.g. my father and half-brother.

Bowel tolerance is an important phenomenon, especially the observation that the sicker people are, the more they can tolerate, but it is not the only guide to proper intake. A person's body weight probably is a better indicator of how much vitamin C they require, as in johnwen's table and formula for CVD: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7593

[davids1]

Hi Owen,

To my knowledge, Pauling never mentioned using Bowel Tolerance as his means of deciding upon dosage amount. I always felt that was a great error on his part.

If your father would have persevered, perhaps his Bowel Tolerance would have increased [and he would not have died from heart disease]. I guess we'll never know.

Cathcart also implied [in one of his articles] that if a person cannot ingest much ascorbic acid, they probably have other health issues. I tend to go with that view, but it certainly could be wrong.

Perhaps you are correct about the liposomal [form of] C. I have certainly read great things about it! What I do not like about it, as with IV/C, is that a person never knows how much their body might want/need at any particular moment, i.e. they are just GUESSING.

I would definitely have to disagree with you that one's body weight would be a better indicator of the proper dosage of/for ascorbate. As just one example, my experience has been that my diet definitely affects my Bowel Tolerance, e.g. the more heavy proteins I consume, e.g. cheese, the higher my Bowel Tolerance becomes immediately. If one does not use one's Bowel Tolerance as an indicator of one's current need for ascorbate, then one can only find out after the fact, i.e. when one discovers they are sick, that they should have been ingesting more.

Just my viewpoint.

Best,

David