Seeking advice on incorporating PT into existing therapy

[jharp]

Sorry for length of this post, but trying to be thorough.

Have read these topics:

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11577
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7593

Trying to come up with initial PT dosing for my father - 89 yrs old, 145 lbs. Not well. Diagnoses include atrial fibrillation, congestive heart failure (CHF), and severe atherosclerosis.

Had total hip replacement in Feb 2014. Pre-surgery angiography showed serious blockages and cardiologist who performed refused to sign off on surgery. Said that stents/bypass impossible - stress from any surgery likely to be fatal. Father found another cardiologist who would sign off and went ahead with surgery. Big mistake. But he did survive the surgery. CHF symtpoms like swollen ankles started immediately post-surgery, and condition went down hill thereafter.

He started taking the heart meds April 2014 when hospitalized twice for severe CHF. But he had a brand new hip! Prior to this (surgery and angiography) there were no cardiovascular concerns or events other than elevated cholestrol numbers.

Will note that he switched cardiologists again upon second hospitalization for CHF. And cardiologist #3 has been much better to deal with overall than #1 or #2. But all three are strict, conventional physicians. No "alternative" nonsense for them!

Meds were switched around at time of second hospitalization, condition improved and stabilized. Sent home and told to take it easy.

Since then, and until 2-3 weeks ago, he has been doing well considering the circumstances. Eating well, and able to engage in some activity like raking leaves and short walks as long as he takes it slowly. Tests showed improvement too. For example, ejection fraction increased significantly. But over last 2-3 weeks he has declined a lot. In last few days pulse has started slowing (<40) for long periods and he's feeling very tired most of the time, and is easily short of breath. Not like when he was hospitalized, but seems to be heading in that direction again.

I hate to say it, but the time has come where it can be said that the existing treatment regime is not working. Or to the extent it is working, the results aren't so good from a quality-of-life standpoint. He's ready to consider other options. It seems like a "hail mary pass" attempt is in order.

Based on John's table, and assuming a 100 mg/kg or higher dose needed, I'm coming up with 6,500 mg of Vit C/day. Somewhere it states that L-Lysine should be 4,000 mg-6,000 mg/day. And not clear on L-Proline, but looking at Cardio-C product, I'm guessing around 1,000 mg/day.

But looking at other places (sites/products) I'm seeing other amounts for these, so some guidance from experts would be much appreciated.

Given the circumstances, want to get this right from the start.

I also notice Cardio-C has Vitamin B2 in it. How does that factor into PT?

Prescription drugs father is taking:
Carvedilol - 3.125 mg twice a day (was 6.25 mg but cardiologist reduced few days ago due to slow pulse)
Lisinopril - 2.5 mg once a day
Atorvastatin - 40 mg once a day (stopped as of today due to declining health - see below for clarification)
Xarelto - 15 mg once a day
Aspirin - 81 mg once a day
Lasix - 80 mg once a day
Potassium - 20 MEQ once a day
Sertraline - 25 mg once a day

Supplements father is taking:
Vitamin C - 400 mg food-based tablet twice a day, 500 mg ascorbic acid softgel three times a day - 2,300 mg total/day
Vitamin D3 - 2,000 IU liquid once a day, 1,000 IU food-based tablet once a day - 3,000 IU total/day
Vitamin K2 MK7 - 100 mcg softgel twice a day - 200 mcg total/day
Magnesium - 100 mg glycinate/lysinate tablet once a day, 125 mg citrate softgel once a day, 50 mg orotate capsule once a day - 275 mg total/day
Ubiquinol - 100 mg softgel once a day
L-Carnitine Fumarate - 500 mg tablet once a day
D-Ribose - 2 g powder once a day
Probiotic - 300 billion cultures/10 strains/senior formula capsule once a day

Regarding Atorvastatin, tried to discuss with cardiologist, but did not go so well. Cardiologist claimed statin only scientifically sound way to deal with atherosclerosis. Also claimed Atorvastatin has important anti-inflammatory actions. I do find studies claiming this. So seems like his view is that even if not needed for cholesterol lowering, it is needed for anti-inflammatory action. An attempt to bring up bad side effects of statins went nowhere.

When asked cardiologist about using supplements instead to deal with inflammation (e.g., astaxanthin, curcumin, alpha lipoic acid) and Lp(a) (e.g., L-Lysine), cardiologist said no. He also said no to any supplements that may affect blood (e.g., Omega-3, Vitamin E, Garlic) , so that's why they aren't listed above. The cardiologist seems totally opposed to supplements, as is the primary care physician. Claims they're a waste of money and provide no real benefits. But I've pushed hard enough to get them to not object to the ones listed above. If they had their way, I'm confident they'd stop all of them.

Father took Atorvastatin from April 2014 until February 2015. At that point, based on research I did and after watching some documentaries (Doctored, Bought, and $tatin Nation) with me, he decided to stop. The risks seemed to outweigh the benefits. And he seemed to me and others to be experiencing cognitive/memory decline. Within about a month he seemed much better mentally. But, after a new lipid panel in May 2015, Cardiologist #3 left a dire voice-mail message regarding higher numbers and concerns regarding statin compliance. It scared my father and he decided to start taking Atorvastatin again and has been until today.

I hate statins, but I can see a case to be made both ways (continue or stop). But not understanding how PT should be incorporated into this sort of heart med mix, at least until some meds could be stopped or phased out because they're no longer needed or redundant, is a concern.

Adding the PT supplements is definitely going to require another round of "discussions" with physicians, so if tweaking other supplements makes sense as well, I might as well do that at same time to minimize frequency of confontations. I get very tired of trying to "discuss" things with physicians, at least most of them.

I'd like to add other supplements, especially those recommended by folks like Ignarro and Sinatra for specific heart conditions. And I'm interested in the mineral transporters of Hans Nieper like 2-AEP and orotic acid. As long as other supplements pose no interaction risks with currents meds, seems like they're worth trying to improve condition in near-term given current circumstances.

I'll mention for sake of completeness that my father exhibits a variety of symptoms (always feels warm, chronic constipation, irritability, anxiety, depression) since long before heart problems surfaced that may suggest some sort of glandular/hormone issue and/or mineral deficiency issue, though it's pure speculation on my part. Physicians have never done right tests to assess. Wish someone would. My understanding is that "normal" serum levels of key minerals/elements like magnesium do not necessarily mean that there is not a deficiency at lower, cellular level.

I already have powders for PT - Quali-C, L-Lysine, L-Proline, and Stevia. I also bought Magnesium Ascorbate powder, which I believe may offer a double benefit for my father, and be one less pill to take. But I wonder what evidence exists as to effectiveness of ascorbate form versus ascorbic acid.

I have test results if that is of interest. Physicians have repeatedly refused to order some tests which we've requested, like CRP and Lp(a), but I do have things like lipid panels, echocardiograms, and such.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jeff

[ofonorow]

Short on time, and have to leave the discussion of the drugs to Johnwen and other M.D.s.

I don't like the form of vitamin C. Since vitamin C is the single most important therapeutic factor (according to Linus Pauling) you want to get it right, which is an argument for Cardio-C. (The vitamin B2 is used to turn the drink color orange (like your urine after taking a B-complex) and is used instead of a food coloring additive.)

The remedy for CHF in Europe is CoQ10 (ubiquinol) and if it were me, I would try to at least double the dosage, but in truth, I probably would try for 600 mg daily in the beginning. (Must be taken with fats as bile is required for CoQ10 absorption in the GI tract)

And the supplements do not include Pauling's basic regimen from his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (1986).

You are missing 400 to 800 iu of vitamin E (we recommend the original Unique-E formula from AC Grace, available at LEF.ORG).
Pauling recommended 25,000 ius of vitamin A as retinol.
Pauling recommended 1 or 2 Super-B complexes plus a multi vitamin/mineral tablet.

[jharp]

Thanks Owen for response.

I don't like the form of vitamin C

I agree! Had just received shipment of powders yesterday when initially posting and had not opened box yet.

Starting today on 1 g Quali-C six times a day. With that, including 870 mg Lysine (Now Foods - 1/2 tsp) and 500 mg Proline (Source Naturals - 1/4 tsp).

vitamin B2 is used to turn the drink color orange

Ah ha! Thanks for explanation. Color doesn't matter to us, so we'll skip that.

remedy for CHF in Europe is CoQ10 (ubiquinol) ... 600 mg daily in the beginning

Have researched CoQ10/Ubiquinol in the past and found similar info. All I've read leads me to conclude Ubiquinol is better to take because it is more directly useable. We take Qunol MEGA CoQ10 Ubiquinol which is based on Kaneka QH with Tishcon Hydrosoluble technology. Claims to offer best absorption and is water and fat soluble. I always try to find products that focus on maximum absorption, bio-availability, and targeting.

Starting today on 200 mg Ubqiunol three times a day.

Have always been struggling to balance keeping physicians happy and my father happy. Now in mode where I don't care what the physicians treating him think. They've failed in my view and it's time to try something else. My father is in a frame of mind now where he's much more receptive to try things because his health is failing.

supplements do not include Pauling's basic regimen

I know. Now trying to rectify that. Adding over next few days, with some exceptions/concerns I'll explain below.

Also trying to blend with recommendations from Nobel Laureate and endothelium/nitric oxide expert Louis Ignarro from his book The New Heart Health. There's some overlap, but he has some I haven't seen mentioned in context of Pauling/Rath protocol. I'm not going to rule them out just for that reason. Especially in near-term given my father's condition.

Major concerns about any impact on blood. Have questioned docs on this repeatedly without success. I'm not a physician, biochemist, or pharmacologist. But basic common sense and grounding in science tells me blood should be managed in a scientifically sound way. Unless everyone's blood is exactly the same and responds exactly the same way to 81 mg Aspirin, 15 mg Xarelto, or anything else, I fail to understand how you can be properly managing blood if you don't test viscosity and stickiness (or whatever medical folks call those properties) regularly. Foods and supplements would have an effect too I would think. When questioned, no one has acknowledged to me that they are testing my father's blood or explained to us the status of it. Are there numbers that quantify these properties, and what are the recommended ranges? I've never been able to find anything on this. Father bruises so easily and bleeds like crazy from minor cuts/scrapes that I really wonder. So will hold off on things like Vit E or Omega-3 until someone can clear this issue up for us.

He took Rx Niacin in past for cholesterol. Severe flushing. Stopped. Have looked at B-complex products. Very selective when it comes to supplements. Ones that seemed OK from quality standpoint seemed to always have Niacin in them. Maybe doing separately is the answer. Have also thought about Inositol Hexanicotinate, but my own research on Niacin leaves me with more questions than answers. If folks here have advice I welcome it. I would feel comfortable with starting Bs (except Niacin) immediately and resolving Niacin issue later.

plus a multi vitamin/mineral tablet

All the research I've done leads me to conclude this category of supplement is one of the biggest wastes of money and potentially harmful. Lot of garbage in them and low-quality forms of specific components (e.g., Magnesium). I was just reading one of the papers you recommend on-line, I think an excerpt from your book, and noticed the story about Manganese and USDA researchers. I grabbed the multi-V bottle my mother takes and it has 4.2 mg! She stopped taking it as of today.

I'd rather supplement with individual, specific things that serve some clear purpose. If someone here can recommend a reasonably priced, high-quality multi-V, I'll certainly reconsider.

Thanks!

[jharp]

Update & clarification on my prior posts...

As of today father taking 500 mg Proline with every other dose of Quali-C and Lysine, so daily totals are:

6.0 g Quali-C
5.2 g Lysine
1.5 g Proline

Regarding Atorvastatin, after further research, review and discussion my father decided to continue taking for now, and I agree.

Until we address the need (using supplements) to lower and/or "block" Lp(a) until endothelium can heal sufficiently, as well as the need for anti-inflammatory action, we'll stick with statin.

Trying to quantify progress is important to me. Feeling better is great, but I'd like some scientific data to quantify what's happening. My father's docs, or the "managed care" system they work in, certainly does not like doing tests. Need advice on testing protocol to measure progress. Cost is big issue if out-of-pocket, which looks like will be the case. Insurance (Medicare Advantage) is only willing to pay for limited testing at infrequent intervals.

Just reading last few days about Sydney Bush and CardioRetinometry. Absolutely fascinating. So simple, yet so brilliant. Another case where the establishment deals with a threat to its dominance by attacking the individual instead of challenging the science, which they can't do since the science shows they're wrong! A sad recurring pattern in science and technology. I'm guessing insurance will not cover this test. But if reasonably priced, would be great way to quantify progress in reversal of athersclerosis.

[ofonorow]

Father bruises so easily and bleeds like crazy from minor cuts/scrapes that I really wonder. So will hold off on things like Vit E or Omega-3 until someone can clear this issue up for us.

Had several points I wanted to respond to, unfortunately, I was interrupted by a store patron.

For example, the purpose of the multi mineral (and multi vitamin) is to cover the bases and provide insurance for an inadequate diet. There are something like 50 or 60 essential substances, a deficiency of any single nutrient can lead to some health failing, even death. They all should be available in the foods we eat ... cheap insurance.

The blood analysis like you suggest is something I have never heard of.

The fact that he easily bruises is a classic sign of vitamin C deficiency, and holding off on two of arguably the most important supplements for his condition - vitamin E and Omega-3 - seems unwise, to say the least.

Without repeating a lot of old forum posts, a extensive study conducted by the World Health Organization on thousands of men and women from sixteen nations. The study illustrated that a low level of vitamin E in the blood was more than twice as predictive of heart attack than either high cholesterol or high blood pressure
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1985406
It is an easy thing to do to take at least 400 mg of a good d-alpha tocopherol.

Omega-3 are necessary for the ongoing health of cellular membranes (and the disruption of cellular membranes may be the cause of Type II diabetes). According to a conversation with Dr. Don Davis, friend and associate of the late Roger J Williams, Omega/3s were the most important supplement in his opinion. (Phone conversation).

After vitamin C (and lysine), vitamin E and Omega-3 are probably the most important nutrients to supplement in ample amounts.

[pamojja]

Major concerns about any impact on blood. ... Father bruises so easily and bleeds like crazy from minor cuts/scrapes that I really wonder. So will hold off on things like Vit E or Omega-3 until someone can clear this issue up for us.

My personal experience: Took loads of natural blood thinners - but adding only one baby-aspirin is the only thing which invariably gives me bloody stools and long bleeds with blood-glucose finger pricks.

If someone here can recommend a reasonably priced, high-quality multi-V, I'll certainly reconsider.

This one: http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/item01914/Two-Per-Day-Capsules

Avoids most synthetic versions of vitamins - especially folic acid.

[jharp]

Thanks for responses.

Unfortunately, we had to halt PT because the Quali-C was irritating his throat a lot. I tried PT too using Quali-C, and I had same experience. Throat irritation to degree that it's not tolerable.

I switched to Magnesium Ascorbate since then for myself, mixing with Lysine and Proline in Pineapple Juice. Works for me. Taste is fine.

I'm puzzled by claims that only Hydrogen Ascorbate works. Where's the science to back up that claim? Stuff I've read said the common ascorbate forms disassociate well in intestine and individual components then absorbed. So how could there be a difference? As a layperson, I don't get it.

I'm a proponent of Vit E and Omega-3. If I wasn't forced to try to obtain doctor approval, which my father always wants, the supplement issues being raised would have been resolved long time ago. And in general, I'd just have him take whatever supplements seemed best for his cardio issues. Now his attitude is changing quickly due to what's currently going on, which I'll highlight briefly below. So maybe he'll be on the right mix of supplements fairly soon.

My father's health worsened significantly and I insisted we go to ER. Admitted immediately. Hemoglobin only 6.3. They attributed to bleeding somewhere in GI tract. Got 3 units. So glad we went when we did. Things were getting really bad.

He is feeling much better now. They did an echocardiogram, and EF now 60. Last one in November 2014 yielded EF of 35. Previous one around April 2014 was 20. Unless this was some bizarre anomaly, I assume they can no longer diagnose him as having CHF. Can't wait to hear how his cardiologist explains this. Sure he will attribute it to pharmaceutical products. Apparently he's on vacation.

They've stopped all his meds while in hospital, and hopefully they will now halt the cardio meds being taken for CHF once he gets out.

They did an upper endo and everything was OK, except mild irritation in stomach which they attributed to Aspirin. So now they are going to do a CT scan with contrast tomorrow, and then, if CT does not yield answers, a colonsocopy.

Hoping for positive outcome to this strange misadventure...

[pamojja]

Good luck!

I'm puzzled by claims that only Hydrogen Ascorbate works. Where's the science to back up that claim? Stuff I've read said the common ascorbate forms disassociate well in intestine and individual components then absorbed. So how could there be a difference? As a layperson, I don't get it.

Just be aware of the amounts of minerals you're additionally getting from ascorbates:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-C/supplemental-forms

[jharp]

I would be very interested in learning more about pamojja's natural blood thinning experiences or others who have useful knowledge. Not looking for speculation from folks with no direct medical knowledge or personal experience.

I searched forum using "blood thinning" and no matter what I do it insists on ignoring "blood". Too many results to realistically try reading them all. Not pleased with search tool.

If folks could provide links to any previous topics that are directly relevant that would be much appreciated.

I'm aware of Vit E, Omega-3, Nattokinase, Curcumin, Bromelain, Ginger, and Garlic.

I also think he needs to boost fluid intake which is very restricted, and stop or at least reduce diuretics. Seems to me like greatly improved EF should lessen risks of fluid retention.

His physicians have changed plans and now they want to install pacemaker before doing any more testing. They're saying only left side of heart has improved significantly. Right side still very weak. Still serious risk of clots. They're saying he now has a different type of CHF, as well as Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome. Pacemaker essential.

Implant not being done until tomorrow, so I have a short time window now to research and investigate. If I'm going to suggest or ask about alternatives, or challenge in any way, I need to prepare quickly.

I don't really object to idea of a pacemaker, if truly only sensible option. But I sure wish they'd explore other possible explanations for his electrical problems. They're saying this is normal in old people. I'd like them to look seriously into possible deficiencies like Magnesium first. I've read cases of people stopping AFIB with supplements. Physicians don't accept this of course. Also, they seem to only be concerned with serum levels and they say those numbers are OK, except low Potassium which they are supplementing orally. They will not give him supplemental Magnesium or Ubiquinol.

After bleeding problem sorted out and he's discharged from hospital they want to put him back on same or similar meds, including blood thinners. They insisted other meds (BP, diuretics) still all needed to maintain progress. His heart improvement due solely to meds! Diet, exercise, and supplements not involved. I'm going to give them a published study that shows clear benefits of oral Ubiquinol supplementation for CHF, but I doubt any of them will read it. Why let science get in the way? Practicing voodoo is apparently more interesting and profitable for them. I feel like I'm trapped in some really bad science fiction nightmare and can't wake up...

[pamojja]

[ofonorow]

jharp wrote:
I'm puzzled by claims that only Hydrogen Ascorbate works. Where's the science to back up that claim? Stuff I've read said the common ascorbate forms disassociate well in intestine and individual components then absorbed. So how could there be a difference? As a layperson, I don't get it.

Where have you seen the claim that only Hydrogen Ascorbate works? Dr. Sydney Bush, for one, prefers sodium ascorbate.

We agree with Linus Pauling (and others) that cardiovascular disease is a chronic, low-grade form of scurvy. Therefore, any form of vitamin C should be effective against heart disease. (And even Pauling himself turned some of his ascorbic acid drink into sodium ascorbate using sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and this would make it easier going "down the throat.") Now we have pointed out that our experience is largely with ascorbic acid in the common Pauling therapy products, that is all, not that it is the only form that works, just that we don't have experience with the other forms, but Dr. Bush does.

We also agree with the late Dr. Robert Cathcart III who said that clinically, only oral ascorbic acid provided what he called the "ascorbate effect" against infections. As our measurements in the Bioavailability of Vitamin C topic illustrate, there are differences in oral ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate. For example, oral ascorbic acid appears to be absorbed in great quantity very quickly. Sodium ascorbate orally enters the blood quite slowly, and probably travels down the GI Tract with a bioavailability per NIH measurements.

[Johnwen]

[yomama]

I actually can prevent the bleeding by simply using PPC (Polyphosphatidylcholine) along with the baby-aspirin.

Sorry for bumping an old thread but that really caught my interest, is that compund the same available through the Soy Lecithin? Do you have any reference for this/what is the mechanism behind or is just a personal experience? Last question, is this related to the chemistry of aspirin or works for everything?

I'm used to take a mix of herbs and I'm always worried about dosage to avoid the additive/excessive blood thinning effect.

Thanks

[skwoodwiva]

I actually can prevent the bleeding by simply using PPC (Polyphosphatidylcholine) along with the baby-aspirin.

Sorry for bumping an old thread but that really caught my interest, is that compund the same available through the Soy Lecithin? Do you have any reference for this/what is the mechanism behind or is just a personal experience? Last question, is this related to the chemistry of aspirin or works for everything?

I'm used to take a mix of herbs and I'm always worried about dosage to avoid the additive/excessive blood thinning effect.

Thanks

Double BUMP.
Is lecithin a substitute?

[pamojja]

Double BUMP.
Is lecithin a substitute?

Thanks for the reminder. Actually heard it on an other forum. Tried it and it worked.

Didn't tried with lecithin, and then I actually didn't saw a reason to continue with aspirin.

Should work as well, since it contains phosphatidylcholine too. However, there are some webside which claim that Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) would work much better. Haven't mentioned a difference otherwise.

Maybe a search would find more hinds? https://www.google.at/search?q=Polyenyl ... 8geOyKn4CQ