How much Lysine can you take safely ?

[DiverDown2]

]Tower Labs. on their site now state :
In short, the key to using the Pauling therapy with medicated stents would seem to be increasing the dosage to at least the low therapeutic level or greater (6-9 grams or more of vitamin C and Lysine.

I thought you had to limit Lysine to 6 grams daily, but could take up to 18 grams Vitamin-C.
Is it safe to take 9 grams lysine for the first 6-12 months after having Medicated Stents ?

[johnjackson]

Im curious also as I have eaten eggwhitees 1+ cartons for years, 2 decades now
454 grams/carton
how much proline/lysine? more than 9.323292988grams
https://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-00 ... axCount=59

[DiverDown2]

I got this back from Tower Labs, about how much lysine you can take when you have medicated stents.
"Equal parts, so that lysine and ascorbic acid dosage are the same, up to the 9g daily."

[johnjackson]

I got this back from Tower Labs, about how much lysine you can take when you have medicated stents.
"Equal parts, so that lysine and ascorbic acid dosage are the same, up to the 9g daily."

why does it matter that you have medicated stents?
so you better watch what you eat? only limit your intake of lysine/vitamin C to 9grams/day?
so careful of eating eggs/fruit when you are doing pauling therapy, you dont want to go OVER 9grams

Ive never never heard of any limit to protein(lysine/proline are protiens) nor limiting Vit C in any fashion.

have you asked them for an explanation for their recommendation?
I'm curious af

[DiverDown2]

Supplemental

[drtom]

[drtom]

I don't know if this is the proper place to put this, but I found this 11 year old article that helps to explain how the human body has adapted to the inability to synthesize Vitamin C and how this is different than the animals that do; seems right to me:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 031408.php

[johnjackson]

big fan of supplemental Vitamin C, but I am also required to go where the evidence leads.

99% mammals make vit C...seems like great evidence to me
end of thread??


-sugar competes with vitamin C, so fewer simple carbs,(refined/man made food) is going to increase vit C getting to wear it needs to go
-chronic inflammation? caused by what? smoking? obesity? stress? refined food diet?...yes, get your CRP to 0

Carnivore diet? you mean no plants/fruits? no supplemental vitamin C?

are not aware that even if they stop sugar, sugar "equivalents" (rapid digestion to glucose) are just as bad

love to see some study saying sugar equivalents are as bad as sugar....
just post it here

My conclusion is that the amount of Vitamin C needed is much less IF one is carnivore, and maybe not at all (meaning supplementation). So far, no carb is optimal, just like our ancestors.

yes, there are optimal carbs, they are called veggies/fruit
broccoli/arugula/grapefruit are a few examples
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ice&dbid=9
or you are saying what?
just eat meat and meat?
how much time do you want to spend in the bathrooom? ]

Yes, not eating man made refined foods is going to help your health

[drtom]

I should not have presumed that readers know the physiological principles of the metabolism of carbohydrates to glucose, which is the key factor:

Complex Carbohydrates

Complex carbohydrates are starches found in whole-grain foods, potatoes, pasta and many other foods that eventually wind up as glucose. Conversion of starches begins in the mouth where saliva surrounds large-branched starch molecules and breaks them apart. Starches convert into maltose in the mouth. Once maltose reaches the small intestine, enzymes convert it to glucose.

Pancreatic juice contains the enzyme, pancreatic amylase, which starts again the breakdown of dextrins into shorter and shorter carbohydrate chains. Additionally, enzymes are secreted by the intestinal cells that line the villi. These enzymes, known collectively as disaccharides, are sucrase, maltase, and lactase. Sucrase breaks sucrose into glucose and fructose molecules. Maltase breaks the bond between the two glucose units of maltose, and lactase breaks the bond between galactose and glucose. Once carbohydrates are chemically broken down into single sugar units they are then transported into the inside of intestinal cells.

Yes most animals can make their own Vitamin C and large amounts, and I used to believe that this was sufficient proof of the needs of humans, but it isn't. Here is how humans have compensated for this genetic defect in a way that the animals who make vitamin C do not:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 120726.htm

Saying that vegetables and fruits are optimal carbs also ignores the evidence that fiber creates major problems in the GI tract and that removing fiber removes the problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUO4P9ADI0

[pamojja]

Yes most animals can make their own Vitamin C and large amounts, and I used to believe that this was sufficient proof of the needs of humans, but it isn't.

I do low carb, high fat and moderate protein. However, other than being convinced by animals producing ascorbic acid endogenously, oral high-dose ascorbic acid convinced me by it's additional health-effects in my case. Such as short after starting, clearing up a for years persisting skin-rush on my back, a cystistis circumscripta healing, working as well as any anti-histamine with a rhinitis sneezing-fits without any side-effects, but overall experiencing remission from a 60% walking-disabilty due to PAD, considered non-reversible by conventional medicine.

Once I found out that there is at least 3x less heart disease in those who greatly reduce or eliminate carbs (also reducing or eliminating other medical problems related to inflammation) and that "chronic" inflammation is the key factor that must be stopped, I questioned the need for mega dose vitamin C lysine and proline to repair coronary artery lesions.

The problem isn't just prevention, but getting rid of existing damage, like in my case a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta bifurcation. All other periferal artheries are clear. I can even identify bacterial infections 10 years earlier than my PAD diagnosis, which lead to damage and repair (=plaque) at exactly that spot. Low carb in my case wasn't sufficient for such a momentous task of repair. And even additional ascorbic acid wasn't enough and it needed many addtional natural remedies to bring inflammation down to acceptable levels. But after 6 years enough repair did occur for the walking-disabilty being removed from a government agency again.

I can personally testify to the benefits of eliminating carbs (carnivore) because ALL inflammation based health problems went away.

Lucky you! Due to bio-chemical individuality - all the different genetic susceptibilities, medical history and present conditions, deficiencies or overload, varying toxic exposures, diet and every other life-style factor, different metabolism, etc. - everyone will react differently well to any intervention. There isn't a 1-size-fits-all.

[pamojja]

Is it safe to take 9 grams lysine for the first 6-12 months after having Medicated Stents ?

Nobody knows. Since it never has been studied with medicated stents, not even basic Pauling therapy underwent any RCT. Upper tolerable intake (in healthy subjects) is allegdedly at 300-400 mg lysin per kg of body weigth. But even without stent one can''t rely on such numbers, since one always could be an outlier.

For example, I tolerate up to 2.4 g of elemental oral magnesium, upper tolerable intake for men is set 400 mg/d only! So in that respect I'm clearly a verry strange outlier. All one can do with so much uncertainty is to always start a new supplement with lowest possible dose, and increase slowly and gradually within months and years. While monitoring symptoms and lab-marker or other specific tests stay optimal.

[drtom]

You said this: "And even additional ascorbic acid wasn't enough and it needed many additional natural remedies to bring inflammation down to acceptable levels."

So it wasn't sufficient to add Vitamin C? Natural remedies? Like what?

Let me make it clear that taking some vitamin C is NOT a bad thing to do in my opinion. However, based on newer evidence of the role of sugar and other refined carbs in creating adverse inflammation, I now conclude that it is MUCH better to stop inflammation by stopping carbs. At the very least, this should prevent the progression of CAD.

So now the question remains as to whether stopping refined carbs will result in reversing existing plaque without Vitamin C supplementation. Since cardiac mortality appears to be at least 3x less in low to no carb diets with no additional Vitamin C supplementation, I don't think that this can be attributed to just stopping the progression of plaque. It is likely that the abundant lysine and proline in the carnivore diet and much smaller amounts of Vitamin C may be sufficient to repair and reverse plaque.

Overall, whether taking Vitamin C or not, the evidence shows that refined carbs (sugar, flour) are bad news because they cause chronic inflammation. So, in effect, one size does fit all. But always in the back of my mind is what huge doses of supplementation of Vitamin C that are not found in nature was doing physiologically when carb intake was not controlled or accounted for.

[johnjackson]

Upper tolerable intake (in healthy subjects) is allegdedly at 300-400 mg lysin per kg of body weigth. But even without stent one can''t rely on such numbers

For example, I tolerate up to 2.4 g of elemental oral magnesium, upper tolerable intake for men is set 400 mg/d only! So in that respect I'm clearly a verry strange outlier..

Im very curious here about "upper limits"?
I just took a spoonful of Mg, washed it down with water
this stuff
https://www.amazon.com/BulkSupplements- ... RydWU&th=1

purebulk mg citrate

so what happens to you when you take more than 2.40987 grams?
Ive never heard of any limit to eating protein, which lysine is. where did you hear that?

[pamojja]

purebulk mg citrate

so what happens to you when you take more than 2.40987 grams?
Ive never heard of any limit to eating protein, which lysine is. where did you hear that?

Magnesium citrate contains only 16% of elemental magnesium, the rest is citric acid. To get 2.4 gram of 'elemental' magnesium you would have to consume 15 g of magnesium citrate bulk powder. If one takes more magnesium than one tolerates the most common effect is diarhea.

Here where the upper tolerable limit is mentioned: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/6/1642S.full.pdf

Such things can easily found with simple internet searches.

[pamojja]

So it wasn't sufficient to add Vitamin C? Natural remedies? Like what?

Overall, whether taking Vitamin C or not, the evidence shows that refined carbs (sugar, flour) are bad news because they cause chronic inflammation. So, in effect, one size does fit all.

Further anti-inflammtories. Like vitamin A, D, E, K Sufficiency. Or botanical extracts like green tea, garlic, amla, pomegranate, milk thistle etc. all known to lower CRP. Boswellia, Resveratrol, Curcumin, fish-oil, etc. are for example known to lower ESR. Against fibrinogen again fish-oil, curcumin, olive oil, and B-vitamins, etc.

The problem is not only carbs causing chronic inflammation, but parasitic, bacterial and viral infection too - beside countless other insults to the enthodelium causing inflammation - where eleminating carbs alone just wont do. My evidence that your '1-size-fits-all' doesn't work is in 10 years of monitored inflammation markers, all the time low-carb, and always getting periodically increased inflammation down again, by increasing above mentioned mostly botanical anti-inflammatories.

Did you ever monitor your inflammation markers through blood-work?