Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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ofonorow
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Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:48 am

Which form of vitamin C to take can be confusing. It is my opinion that for heart disease, chronic scurvy, until it can be proven otherwise, that the absolute number of vitamin C molecules entering the blood is key. The research cited by Pauling in HTLLAFB shows that one molecule of ascorbate is required and used up creating one molecule? (strand?) of collagen.

Therefore, if you are like most people and require 10 grams of ordinary vitamin C powder daily for reversal, then you may require 5 to 10 grams of liposomal for the same effect (assuming 50% loss in GI Tract from powder and zero loss from liposomal vitamin C.)

The point is while there is apparently a significant amplification effect of true liposomal vitamin C against infection, from any true liposomal vitamin C product, e.g. ours or Livon's (meaning less dosage provides more bang than ordinary C powder or even IV/C) the advantage for those with heart disease is unclear, except in cases of people who cannot absorb (tolerate) high enough dosages of ordinary vitamin C. Liposomal vitamin C is better absorbed in the GI Tract and we have reports of benefit when people ADD it on top of their vitamin C powder (not replace it).

The other issue is that the plaques line the arteries or lumen. If the liposomal vitamin C remains encapsulated and passes into cells, they action against the plaque might be by-passed. (If most enters the liver, becomes ordinary ascorbate, and then enters the blood - this problem is a non issue. The point is that our nearly 20 years of experience now shows that the Pauling-therapy using ascorbic acid powder works almost every time.)
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by Serdna » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:02 am

ofonorow wrote:It is my opinion that for heart disease, chronic scurvy, until it can be proven otherwise, that the absolute number of vitamin C molecules entering the blood is key. The research cited by Pauling in HTLLAFB shows that one molecule of ascorbate is required and used up creating one molecule? (strand?) of collagen.

That point is outdated. Actually it seems that AA is oxidized to DHA only when not enough substrate is present. From Vitamins C and E: Beneficial effects from a mechanistic perspective:
Coordination of ascorbate with enzyme-bound iron would provide the necessary electrons in uncoupled reaction cycles to reactivate the enzyme (Figure 1), consistent with the observation that ascorbate is consumed stoichiometrically in uncoupled reaction cycles [11]. Thus, the role of ascorbate is to keep the nonheme iron in the catalytically active, reduced state.

Even then since this DHA is within the cell it should be reduced back to AA by glutathione most of the times.

So it must be some orders of magnitude more procollagen (hence collagen) molecules generated per AA molecule lost (finally not reduced back but degraded).

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by ofonorow » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:14 am

Serdana, I'm wondering if this was posted in the wrong topic? That you meant to post or thought you were reading a DHA topic? If so, please move to the correct topic.

And I will take the opportunity to clarify, just in case. This section - Heart Disease and Stroke - is for people with heart disease or those wanting to learn more about Pauling's theory and therapy.

We have long parroted Linus Pauling's advice that 5 to 6 grams of vitamin C and 5 to 6 grams of lysine is effective for arresting and even reversing cardiovascular disease, if the dosage is maintained.

The reason for this post is to profer that 6 grams of liposomal might not be equivalent to say 12 grams of ordinary powder, because we are not certain whether the encapsulated vitamin C works its magic on Lp(a)-based plaques.

Furthermore, while we are seeing extraordinary "amplification effects" of True-liposomal versus infection, especially viral infection, so that Dr. Levy estimates from his clinical experience, that True-Liposomal may be 10 times more effective that IV/C directly into the vein - gram for gram.

I don't yet believe such an amplification works visa vis heart disease because at its core, heart disease is a collagen deficiency issue.
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by Serdna » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:08 am

ofonorow wrote:Serdana, I'm wondering if this was posted in the wrong topic? That you meant to post or thought you were reading a DHA topic?

No, I mean DeHydroAscorbic acid by DHA.

ofonorow wrote:
The reason for this post is to profer that 6 grams of liposomal might not be equivalent to say 12 grams of ordinary powder, because we are not certain whether the encapsulated vitamin C works its magic on Lp(a)-based plaques.

Furthermore, while we are seeing extraordinary "amplification effects" of True-liposomal versus infection, especially viral infection, so that Dr. Levy estimates from his clinical experience, that True-Liposomal may be 10 times more effective that IV/C directly into the vein - gram for gram.

I don't yet believe such an amplification works visa vis heart disease because at its core, heart disease is a collagen deficiency issue.

Of course it is not clear if liposomal is going to have a greater effect outside infections. Infection bringing down ascorbate reserves has already been observed. But certainly collagen production doesn't bring down significantly ascorbate reserves as I have pointed out.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:15 am

Sorry, I think I am starting to see your point. You disagree with the Japanese study cited by Pauling in HTLLAFB that found one molecule of ascorbate is "used up" creating one molecule of collagen?

This is reference 11 in the paper you linked to.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6325436
and there may very well be the Pauling reference (with associated translation issues.)

The hydroxylation of proline and lysine residues by the collagen hydroxylases is coupled with a stoichiometric decarboxylation of 2-oxoglutarate. Ascorbate is virtually a specific requirement for these enzymes, but previous studies have demonstrated that it is not consumed during most catalytic cycles. Prolyl 4-hydroxylase and lysyl hydroxylase are known also to catalyze an uncoupled decarboxylation of 2-oxoglutarate in the absence of the peptide substrate. It is shown here that, unlike the complete hydroxylation reaction, the uncoupled decarboxylation reaction involves stoichiometric ascorbate consumption.


They say they are disagreeing with the previous studies, so there is at least a question here. And the next part of the abstract regarding L-proline is also fascinating.
This stoichiometric ascorbate consumption was also seen when the rate of the uncoupled prolyl 4-hydroxylase reaction was enhanced by the addition of poly(L-proline). Since collagen hydroxylases may catalyze occasional uncoupled reaction cycles even in the presence of the peptide substrates, the main function of ascorbate in these reactions in vivo is suggested to be that of reactivating the enzymes after such uncoupled cycles.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by Serdna » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:01 pm

I don't dispute it being consumed. My point is that consumed ascorbic acid (hence dehydroascorbic acid) is highly likely to be reduced back to ascorbic acid by glutathione inside the cell.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by ofonorow » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:17 am

So why then do people suffer scurvy - or more commonly - chronic scurvy (aka cardiovascular disease )?
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by samarkand » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:26 am


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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by Joanna45 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:22 pm

I use heart tech from tower labs had 48% narrowing of superior mesenteric artery and same with mesenteric celiac artery ..it feeds blood to the stomach and what made me see the doctor was extreme stomach pain after eating ..had a mesenteric duplex ultrasound that showed the narrowing ..inferior mesenteric were all fine ..with in a week of taking 6-9 grams of heart tech could eat with without any pain ..that was this past July and am still taking the heart tech and am now back to regular routine ..and am skiing again with no fatigue..

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:35 am

samarkand wrote:I am interested in the debate re Liposomal and ordinary vitamin C powder.

My situation is 2 x 50% blockages and one unexpected recently fitted stent for a 90%+ blockage.

Currently I am taking liquid Liposomal C by DaVinci Laboratories of Vermont. Approx 4000 mg per day - started 2 weeks ago. Plus Lysine and Proline, and a number of other supplements recommended by an alternative MD.



Do you have anything to report about your experience/dosage with DaVinci Lab's liposomal vitamin C? This topic is trying to make the point that you cannot decrease your dosage (much) with a liposomal when trying to beat chronic scurvy (aka heart disease). Furthermore, for reversals, there are theoretical reasons why a powder might be better than a liposomal (if it remains encapsulated until it enters cells). Liposomal for infections is a different matter entirely.
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by samarkand » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:56 am

I haven't managed to get up to diarrhoea state with DaVinci - taking 1 tablespoon x 3 daily- estimate that to be 4000-5000mg. I've now ordered the Pauling Therapy power as you suggested, which will also minimise tablet intake.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by ofonorow » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:37 am

The report we are interested in is any effect on cardiovascular disease? If you were in pain, did it decrease (or increase?) Have your cholesterol numbers changed? Do you have more energy, i.e., the types of effects that have been reported when people in your condition start Pauling's therapy; usually within 10 days on at least 5000 mg of ascorbic acid POWDER.
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by samarkand » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:00 pm

@ofonorow
@Johnwen

Age now 74. One stent June 2016. Started Ascorsine9 almost immediately double dose for 18 months, then maintenance dose (2 spoons)

BP one year ago stable at 135/80/45. Only med was Candastartan 8mg. one daily.

All good until recently as BP has just gone off the scale.
Hospital by ambulance Friday night - BP 265/119
Sent me home when they got my BP below 165/ after 16mg Candastatin, 5 mg Amlodopine
Suggested take 8mg Candastatin and 5mg Amlodopine morning, 8 mg Candastain evening. BP still elevated on this dose. 160/80- 180/80

Tests done. Bloods, urine, XRay, thyroid (all OK)

4 years in June since 1 stent.
Climbing 500 steps - no chest pain
Can walk very fast. Can work in garden 4 hours easy

Glass pomegranate juice daily

Continuing on Ascorsine9 - 2 spoons per day. Should I increase this back to 4 spoons per day?

Plus Liposomal C lunch and dinner. (8000mg total per day)
Koncentrated K - alternating with Life Extension, Super K
LEX D3
AOR B complex
A C Grace Vit E (both)
Magnesium
Thorne Resveratrol
Solgar, Omega-3, EPA & DHA, Triple Strength, 950 mg,
Natural Factors, Coenzyme Q10, 100 mg
Zinc Picolinate
California Gold Nutrition, Astaxanthin, AstaLif Pure Icelandic, 12 mg

Something in this mix causes unusual liver numbers. If I go off most vits the liver comes right

Seeing Holistic GP on Monday
Cardiologist 28th Aug

Any thoughts on why BP has become elevated?

Have added some L'Argenine for NO. Currently 1500mg

Your thoughts kindly appreciated.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by samarkand » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:08 pm

FYI - apologies I missed seeing your request.

Current Calcium numbers 2/06/2020 = 2.22 mmol/L.
17/07/2017 = 2.35 mmol/L

Fasting
Cholesterol 5.0 mmol/L (Rec Range <5.0 )
HDL 1.59 mmol/L
LDL 3.0 mmol/L
Cho/HDL ratio 3.1

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post by Lemon Planet » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:45 pm

samarkand-

I also had a blood pressure excursion last year. I am sure my problem was from something I ate so that doesn't sound the same as your problem.

I went to a clinic and got ARB losartan. That is an Angiotensin Receptor Blocker to block the effects of the angiotensins. The angiotensins make the blood vessels to constrict and the ARB make them relax. Here is my amateur theory.

The angiotensins are caused by certain things that are upsetting to the body. In my case I think there were toxins in my food and the angiotensins were in response to the toxins. I quit eating those vegetables and told the restaurant manager about the problem. My blood pressure came under control and then after a while quit taking the ARBs. They worked when I needed them to lower my BP and didn't do anything after getting over the problem causing the BP spike. Now I save the ARBs just for an emergency. I think certain bacterial infections can also cause angiotensins and so result in a BP spike.

I wonder if the variety of supplements you are taking are becoming toxic to your liver. I would worry most about the fat-soluble vitamins because they can cause toxicity at high levels. There are some things you have that are outside my experience so that is mysterious. The combination supplements make figuring out the reason for your spike more complicated.

If you don't find a good answer then I would keep things simple if your blood pressure is now better and slowly add the pills you can't do without until you notice a problem to pinpoint the cause. The Vitamin C is the most important in my opinion and probably prevented your episode from becoming tragic.
Vitamin C: intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent insufficient ascorbic acid.


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