Bioavailability of Vitamin C

[Johnwen]

When producing Lipo-C your going to have a residual amount of V-C still in the mix that didn't make it into the Liposphere's ( didn't get encapsulated). However this residual V-C may have attached themselves to the outer layer's of the spheres forming an emulsion. This emulsion will act and be processed just like V-C and have a rapid action just as a dose of V-C will.

Or the claim that Eme Blair's True-Liposomes are 98% encapsulated

Where is that 2% that didn't get encapsulated go??????

I still would like an answer to the question how a 500 mg ascorbic acid tablet, which must take some time to dissolve in the stomach can clear mucous from the sinuses in as little as five minutes. I don't think its possible that it reaches the small intestines in that short interval.

Try this take 4oz. Of Vinegar which is a weak acid compared to stomach acid and put a 500mg. TABLET (not capsule) of V-C in the vinegar and see how long it takes till you get a release of substance from the tablet. I got 15 seconds using Heinz vinegar from the cafeteria and a wally brand of V-C I keep in my desk. First reaction was at 15 seconds total breakdown 4minutes 42 seconds !!! The particles released where definitely smaller then 2mm which means they'll pass through the pyloric valve with no problem. Since the acid in the stomach is about twice as strong as vinegar plus I didn't agitate it (like if somebody was walking around after taking the V-C tablet) I would have to say it would take about 2 minutes and a couple of seconds for this Tablet to get broken down and to be absorbed into blood stream! That leaves 3 minutes for it circulate in the blood and to attack what ever is aggravating the sinuses.!!!!
So there's your answer!!!!

[OxC]

So which link again, claims that reduced vitamin C is taken up by GLUT???

Actually all of them do!

I'm sorry Johnwen, but none of the references cited in this thread suggest that reduced vitamin C is transported by GLUT transporters. Reduced vitamin C (AA or ascorbate ion) is transported by SVCT transporters. Oxidized vitamin C (dehydroascorbic acid) is transported by GLUT transporters.

Owen, thank you for the link to the 2004 ebook that you provided in this post. From the excerpts that are available to read, and from the prestigious list of contributors to that book, I would guess that this is one of the most comprehensive and current books about vitamin C that is available. Of note is the frequency with which the oxidized forms of vitamin C are discussed. In fact, it appears that 4 of the 16 chapters in this book are focused almost exclusively on the chemistry and physiology of oxidized vitamin C. It is clear that the role of DHAA in the overall understanding of vitamin C is fundamental, and relatively new.

You posted a few quotes from the book, one of which I would like to comment about:

...ingesting either ASC or DHA raises serum ASC concentrations to similar extents...Indeed, there is a widely held understanding that dietary ASC or DHA possess roughly equivalent bioavailability...

Bioavailability is dose-related. For example, an oral 250 mg dose of AA is essentially 100% bioavailable to almost all humans, whereas a dose of 1250 mg has been shown to be only about 20% bioavailable in many people. In past studies, such as the authors of this ebook are citing, absorption of AA and DHAA were compared at low doses (less than 250 mg). Both were absorbed equally well. However, when large doses are used, such as in my study where doses of 5000 mg were used, it is abundantly clear that DHAA is far more bioavailable than AA. Based on a rough AUC analysis of the amount of AA versus DHAA that were absorbed after 5 grams of each were ingested, it appears that DHAA is very close to 100% bioavailable even at doses as high as 5000 mg.

[Johnwen]

[OxC]

You are correct!

Thanks.

...throwing a curve ball...switching gears...got me!!!! That's what I get for multi tasking!

We all get caught up in trying to make some point, and arguing with some specific guy, but if the discussion is too complex to dedicate the time to fully understanding it, I don't think a guy should post the first thing that comes out of his mouth on the Vitamin C Foundation forum. I consider this forum to be well-respected, and am aware that many people come across the things I say who are not regular participants in this forum. I make every effort to contribute by saying what it is I believe to be true, and avoiding getting into online quarrels which might tempt me to say what is not true.

I got a couple of questions?
What is the difference between DHA and DHAA??

They are both proper abbreviations for dehydroascorbic acid. In that sense, there is no difference.

After watching the study video, I was wondering how this mix reacts with sodium bicarbonate?

Combining the smoothie as made in the video with sodium bicarbonate will reduce the acidity of the solution and reduce the stability of the DHAA in the final product.

BTW: Look up lipofection a true liposomal mix will not raise V-C blood levels to any degree. An Emulsion made with liposomes will. Because what you where talking about on that video was a liposomal emulsion and not a true liposomal delivery product!

Whatever you say. Just lead me to some literature or evidence that shows an actual measurement of vitamin C concentration somewhere in the body besides the bloodstream that suggests liposomal vitamin C will increase the amount in some fluid or tissue to any greater degree than plain old ascorbic acid tablets will. By the way, Hickey's study, as cited in my video, used Livon Labs product as I recall.

[ofonorow]

I learned a lot from the ebook OxC. A great deal about DHA for example.

johnwen I accept that the acid-tablet rapidly breaks down - its the journey down the stomach, and out the intestines in 5 minutes that is suspect, so I decided to write Dr. Hickey asking him about his reference. (Principles of Drug Action)

Hi Owen,

Briefly:

Cell membranes allow very small, non-polar, and lipid soluble molecules to pass.

The stomach is (or should be) strongly acid (HCl).

Weak organic acids are thus driven by the strong acid into the associated and relatively non-polar state (i.e. H+ A- becomes HA).

Thus small weak organic acids are often absorbed well in the stomach. In other words it is quite possible that vit C is absorbed in the stomach - and the extent depends on how polar is the 'associated molecule' etc..

Try this link to a section in a toxicology book which gives more detail:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hWDNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA619&lpg=PA619&dq=absorption+of+weak+organic+acids+stomach&source=bl&ots=Es-VCyEbGA&sig=0hNy7ft6Ywm0nTQSyucgBiZoEnM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-SWUVbiYE4X8UqO7rjg&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=absorption%20of%20weak%20organic%20acids%20stomach&f=false

I hope the link works for you.

Steve

Unfortunately, the link does not work for me - johnwen?

[Johnwen]

959 Pages????????

Guess I know what I'll be doing this 4th of July!!!!

Have a good one TOO EVERYONE!

[Johnwen]

OxyC;
There is no direct answer to your question because there are so may variables at play here! The type of liposome being used will change different levels in different parts of the body depending on the type of system being used.
So the only way I can explain it is to show you the different varieties and how they are at play here. After you understand this you'll see that just measuring blood levels isn't always the indicator a liposome is working or Not!

First let's get a grip on what a liposome is Wiki give a pretty good truncated presentation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome

You want me to show you that liposomes don't breakdown in the blood .
Well that's something that a garden variety liposomes don't do! They get broken down by the body's defense system. Which you'll learn about in the links below. If you want a blood delivery system, there is special type of liposomes that evade the body's immune system and they are called LCL's Long Circulation Liposomes they are usually PE (Phosphatidylethanolamine) or PEG's (Polyethylene Glycol) Liposomes. The PEG's are linked below!
So yes there are types of liposomes that deliver a sustained release to the blood but their not what your going to find encapsulating V-C! WHY??$$$$

So when you read this in the next presentation you'll know this is not a blanket statement and there are caveats to create these as you'll see in the diagram on the types!

DURATION;
Liposomes can act as a depot from which the entrapped compound is slowly released overtime. Such a sustained release process can be exploited to maintain therapeutic (but nontoxic)drug levels in the bloodstream or at the local administration site for prolonged periods of'time. Thus, an increased duration of action and a decreased frequency of administration are beneficial consequences

http://www.scribd.com/doc/105016839/Sem ... g-Delivery

Before you read the next article it might be best to brush up on what they'll be talking about in the next article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phagocyte

Now on to PEG's

http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazin ... ailability
Does the word INFLAMMATION come to mind after reading that last article?


Here's a presentation that get's pretty techy but it covers things they see as necessary but also leaves some questions.

http://ijcpr.org/Issues/Vol3Issue2/292.pdf


So I think you can see that when someone say's liposome it's like saying 'Bread!' which always brings a second question being 'What Kind?'
However when you ask the 'what Kind?''question to someone pushing their liposome product their response is usually'It's a properitory type!' Meaning they want no body to know! This is usually followed by something in the blood when you get specific it turns into a peat repeat response.
If you want to get a compound into the blood rapidly without being broken down in the stomach a micelle might be a better choice. However when I hear these claims about blood levels I still wonder if this is not what their producing but they will never tell!

Here's what a micelle is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle


So I hope you learned something here and I'm sure you understand that this is another science in it's self and perfection of it is not just around the corner but it's potentials are endless.

[ofonorow]

Today I had a 10 gram (11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate) infused intravenously in 40 minutes. We rotated through 3 Abbott-Labs FreeStyle Lite glucose meters (A, B and C).

I had to wait for the doctor's office to open - so fasting continued until 8:30 a.m. (No coffee... No meds... Just the glass of water at the first baseline).

I am posting this here because of the title - Bioavailability of Vitamin C. I may consolidate to a new post, or add to our Crude Measurements post.

Code: Select all

30 minutes prior to the IV we did baseline measurements from each meter

A   134 mg/dl
B   120 mg/dl
C   120 mg/dl

Then after the IV was hooked up, but prior to the drip we did another baseline.

A   124 mg/dl.



Code: Select all


The following are the measurements every minute

Meter      Minute        Reading
A             +1              147
  B           +2                   143
    C         +3                          143
A             +4             152
  B           +5                   146
    C         +6                          152
A             +7             159
  B           +8                   150
    C         +9                          162
A             +10           159
  B           +11                 164
    C         +12                        159
A             +13           168
  B           +14                 164
    C         +15                       174
A             +16          162
  B           +17                 167
    C         +18                       173
A             +19          179
  B           +20                 174
    C         +21                       178
A             +22          175
  B           +23                 187                     **   New Test Strips
    C         +24                       189
A             +25          187
  B           +26                 199
    C         +27                        191
A             +28          211
  B           +29                  207
    C         +30                        200
A             +31         207
  B           +32                  198
    C         +33                        210
A             +34         210
  B           +35                  199
    C         +36                        200
A             +37         197
  B           +38                  191
    C         +39                          194
A             +40         184                           ** stopped IV (had slowed down tube for the past few minutes)
  B            +41                 195
    C          +42                          178
A              +43         163
   B           +44                  181
    C          +45                          182
A              +46         183

Paused measurement
   B            +50                   177
   

      C         +54                          164


A               +58          167


   B            +80                  165         

Notes:

i. Don't try doing this alone. Another person has to load the meter with the test strip and write down the results, etc.
ii. We opened new test strips at minute 23 - all meters seemed to increase the score 10+ points with new test strips.
iii. The doc wanted us to continue for awhile after the drip - but we seemed to steady state at 165 mg/dl and I needed coffee, and my hydrocortisone and my lantus!

Tomorrow or the near future, I will take 10 grams of Ascorbic Acid by mouth and repeat the measurements... Ditto 11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate by mouth.. (Learning to live without morning coffee

[Johnwen]

all meters seemed to increase the score 10+ points with new test strips.

Have you ever calibrated your meters ???

http://www.freestylelitemanual.com/inde ... 47&lang=us

Control Solution is available for under $10 on Amazon and quite a few other places!

You should do this every time you use New test strips!

BTW! The fasting 120 start, looks Good!!! Given everything you went thru to get it there!

[OxC]

Today I had a 10 gram (11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate) infused intravenously in 40 minutes.

I am impressed and following this with much interest! Your data is fascinating. I hope you will describe which products you are using. And, not right now while you're so busy with this, but later on, maybe in a new thread, I hope you will describe your physical experience with an IV of vit C. I've never had one, and am curious as to any sensations you experienced (even mundane and probably expected things, like it made you need to pee). I'll bet others would like to read that too.

Thanks for the effort you are putting into this. I hope you did not have to suffer that many finger-pricks...there are blood drawing devices that go in the vein so that small frequent samples can be taken from just one poke, and I hope you had access to something like that!

[ofonorow]

Johnwen - I had used the control solution in the past - to check the sanity of my meter early on, but I did not know I could use it to "calibrate" (change?) the meter reading? In any case, I don't want to change the meters for the follow-on oral experiments. (I am out of test strips so these experiments will have to wait a few days.)

Experiment #1 - 10 grams of ultrafine ascorbic acid - all one gulp. Same measurements.

Experiment #2 - 250 mg of ultrafine ascorbic acid by mouth every minute. (This is to approximate the rate of intake of the IV/C. This is not something people would do, but it should make a comparison between oral and IV "bioavailability" easier.)

Follow-on - 11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate orally (since previous experience has shown this to be much less "interesting", I may not prick myself every minute.)

And I may see if I can pick up the liposomal in the blood, knowing that we have to wait about 2 hours to measure.

OxC - This was the first time I had an IV/C for reasons that weren't health related. And I was focused on the experiment. I did not notice anything during the fast drip. (I felt the need to urinate on the drive home). And it was a very small IV (10-really 11.3 grams in a small IV bag). In the past, around 2011, after I got out of the hospital and was trying to cure my "problem" with high dose intravenous vitamin C (before I figured out that the problem was a lack of cortisol output by my adrenal glands) I got up to 200,000 mg (200 grams) intravenously. Those IVs only provided temporary relief of symptoms.

The most outstanding aspect of those large IVs were their diagnostic ability to pin point areas of the body in, lets says, some distress or had some inflammation. The knowledge of this IV/C effect at 200 grams was first conveyed to us from "Mike" whose sister was mercury poisoned (The initial communication is documented in our archive: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7563 ) Mike pointed out that parts of the body in trouble become noticeable towards the end of the large IV. In my case, I had gotten in the habit of sleeping on one side with my head on my arm, and I didn't even notice that the arm was "suffering" - until the first IV, when the arm began throbbing.

[Johnwen]

Owen;

For the purpose of this test, would be only to compare the amount of difference rendered from a base line figure to what your blood is experiencing which can be translated to a percentage. As far as saying that the readings your getting could determine the amount of V-C is in your blood it would be very doubtful. My last post on the 'Water,' explains this.

Simply your reading the amount of oxidation of the V-C on the test strip from your blood.

So more V-C in the blood the more oxidation that's going to happen on the test strip which will render a higher reading! You can then do a comparative analysis but as far as getting a actual Mg/dl reading and saying this is the amount of V-C in the blood is not an accurate account. It would have to be checked on lab equipment preferably a whole blood read, to get an accurate reading.

So using different strips as long as you use the same batch and get a baseline before start, it really wouldnt matter.

Here's what your test looks like in a graph! (hope it works on the new forum
Set up!)

[ofonorow]

johnwen - thanks for the graph! (May I ask what tool you used?) And it shows when the IV bag emptied, and the drip started going down the tube - before the IV stopped.

And I will read your last post on the water, but at this point I am simply collecting data - not trying to determine the real numbers, (although I think we will be able to make a fairly accurate guess what the actual numbers are. We'll repeat the calibration we did during the CRUDE MEASUREMENTS with 90 mg of sugar in a deciliter of water, and 1.5 mg of ascorbic acid in a deciliter of water).

Linus Pauling said his own measurements showed that there was a 50% loss of vitamin C by mouth, and Cathcart mentions his belief (in the video lecture) that there is up to an 80% loss of vitamin C taken by mouth.

I am interested in seeing the graphs of the next two experiments (Waiting on more test strips).

In the meantime, it is the difference above the baseline (the delta) that we should probably graph. If my numbers (memory) are correct, and normal sugar is around 90 mg/dl and ascorbate is 1.5 mg/dl (maximum!) The IV/C experiment seems to show ascorbate going from say 2 mg/dl to around 90 mg/dl at the peak (211 high - 120 baseline). But as you point out, it is not 1 for 1, but we will determine the ratio.

Note: Last time (gulping ascorbic acid) there was this quick spike and drop off, making us think that insulin may have spiked. Maybe I simply am insulin resistant or not making enough insulin?

[OxC]

Note: Last time (gulping ascorbic acid) there was this quick spike and drop off, making us think that insulin may have spiked. Maybe I simply am insulin resistant or not making enough insulin?

There have been very few studies that have evaluated the effects of large doses of vitamin C, either IV or oral, on blood glucose levels. One case report suggested that large oral doses of AA (4500 mg) taken daily caused increased fasting blood glucose in one individual. But I've not found any published study that has ever measured the immediate blood glucose responses as you have done.

The quick spike and drop-off in blood glucose that you previously noted following a large oral dose is not consistent with the idea that your measurements reflect the amount of ascorbate in the bloodstream, because the spike occurred so much more rapidly than ascorbate usually appears in the blood, and because it dropped-off and stayed flat when you could expect actual increases of ascorbate in the blood. I think you are on the right track when you start thinking that the blood glucose measurements are actually reflecting true blood glucose. Whether such an increase is attributable to an effect on insulin, or there is some other explanation, you have demonstrated a phenomenon that I've never seen reported before.

Please note that the above paragraph is referring to your previous oral dose results, and not to your most recent IV results. The extremely high blood ascorbate levels that occur when ascorbate is given IV could very well interfere with your blood glucose meter sufficiently that these measurements do actually reflect the increased amount of ascorbate in the blood. If so, it will be difficult to convert that interference into accurate quantitative values. And the possibility that those measurements, in part or whole, are due to changes in blood glucose rather than blood ascorbate should not be ruled-out.

Again I admire your willingness to perform these experiments.

[Johnwen]

Owen
The graph was made on 'MS Works 8 Database. It's an old version but it's so darn simple to use Compared to Ms Office. I guess that's why Microsoft quit selling it in 2006. I keep it on all my puter's that are running 8.1etc.
If I did it on my Office program I'd still be trying to connect the dot's let alone post it!!! It took about 15 Min. to produce and about 10 to convert it to JPEG and photo bucket it. No bullets, no plug ins, just wham and done!

Note: Last time (gulping ascorbic acid) there was this quick spike and drop off, making us think that insulin may have spiked. Maybe I simply am insulin resistant or not making enough insulin?

I was wondering about something very similar on this Test. You said, you didn't take your Lantus. Which could account for the sustained levels even up to your last read at 80 min. which was still high (above base line).

Which could mean that the stress of the IV-C could have kicked in a glucose rise along with the C. Don't forget stress causes a rise in glucose levels so you have energy to fight or flight and with a lack of insulin this will cause a sustained rise which will remain higher then normal even after the C has been used or stored.

It would have been a good idea that about an 1 ' hours after the IV to get your dose of insulin and monitor. That way you know if your reading the residual C or the glucose spike associated with the stress of the situation.

So for the next test get a baseline the day before also taken about a ' hour after insulin dose preferably in a fasting state, same meter or meter's!
That way when you hit the point were you take your insulin you'll be able to compare and see if the C is still there or if it was a Glucose spike along with the C!
There hasn't been many studies that go beyond and hour or two since they say it only lasts that long but I believe that somewhere between the 2 and 4 hour mark there is a release from the kidney's which causes another C spike but no one has ever pursued this. I know from personal experience that about 4 hours after I feel a burst then about hour 6 I'm grabbing a couple of gram's to get back on track. It could be just me but 2 Grams of C and I'm good to go! So after all is said an done, about 4-5 hours after your test take another test and see if you see a spike! This would give some more understanding for those with Type 1!!