exitium wrote:
For starters I dont believe I ever said "you are wrong". My point has been that you are skipping over the basic essentials of optimal bodily function. You are running out onto a beach and trying to erect a house right on the sand without laying down a solid foundation to put it on, more on this later.
Example, "skipping over optimal bodily function"? what are you talking about exactly? you dont point out what part you are quoting.
Is there something I seem to be missing in terms of how things work??
If so, point it out specifically, and while I'd love to run anywhere, that's not happened in many years.
I will reiterate what I've said before, you and I are in much agreement, the issues I am dealing with here is compliance/getting my dad/mom/siblings, to do what I tell them to do.
I'd told you before, I could never get my mom to workout/diet until after she got boob cancer(high estrogen?) and she slowly started doing what I said and felt better each step and now, shes a 66yo female jack lalanne.
My dad is 66, high e2/lowT, which through lots of reading, I think cause a-fib and his type 2 diabetes.
Both are correct with TRT.. I have said I dont see a missing ingredient fixing his diminished T, and I've been on other forums, based on science who look for different approaches to raising T, lowering E, all through lifestle, diet, and supplement changes.
Most of the guys there are on HRT cause none of that works.
My dad needs to lower his E asap.
Even if his high E is due to some missing ingredient, as you point it, it takes lots of time/effort and COMPLIANCE. (I can't even get the man to mostly walk, instead of the HIIT he prefers, again, emotion triumphs over logic)
Much less have him going another year with high E.
exitium wrote:
Your posts are very difficult to follow and I dont think im alone in that, you have questions buried within questions and jump around from subject to subject.
They are long and have many questions, I agree. like how this one went long, I don't know how to get them shorter,
I'm trying to ask only one question per post, but it takes away from the question without adding in some facts... do you have a solution?
exitium wrote:This is one reason I have not gone into a lot of detail and I am sure why many of your posts do not have any responses by others.
right, I need to post one question per post, but the body is interconnected, one part affects other parts, I have a hard time asking only one question,. it's like trying to put together a puzzle one piece at time with no map to look at
exitium wrote:For me personally I can "feel" my afib episodes. Taking my pulse when I feel them verifies that it is indeed occurring. Sure its no EKG or holter monitor, but I am not going to pay for them to tell me what I already know.after he had afib, he went to the ER, and later was given a holter which confirmed afib Ive been down that road. I was also put on a beta blocker and aspirin for the afib which had no effect. I had 3 different doctors tell me there is nothing I could do about it. I stopped meds cold turkey after 90 days and havent looked back. Your not supposed to come off afib meds according to who? my dad who had afibThe maker who benefits from you buying them every month for the rest of your life? The prescribing doctor who makes money off your constant visits and script refills?
My dad had afib with me 5 yrs ago, I took him to the hospital where the MD said he didnt need a stress test, as his HR was going so fast he knew it was fine.... but it
scared my dad. He does not want to risk that and he sees no reason to stop the meds... and I dont see a benefit to stopping them either, only cons which is why I asked why stop them?
exitium wrote:As for me curing my afib, I would not say its cured but I believe one day in the near future it will be. It can take weeks, months or years for the body to manifest symptoms due to a missing nutrient
and it can take just as long for the body to heal itselfI know that all too well once the nutrients are restored. One example is Dr Brownstein claims that in his practice treating people with iodine for thyroid health it takes 6-12 months at 50mg a day for people to reach iodine sufficiency. We have seen similar claims here for PT to have its full effect.
With nutrients, its not like taking a drug, we have to not only supply enough for the daily demands but also an excess for the body to repair and heal. The problem with most supplement plans is they do not take that into account. They simply use what the body needs on a daily basis as the target goal but that does not address the needs of repair and regeneration for years of previous nutrient shortage.
In a perfect world the FDA recommendation for vit C may be ample. But VC is an excellent electron donor to the immune system. In animals who have been studied, they ALL greatly increase vit C production during times of stress and illness. The FDA RDI doesnt account for that, or exposure to toxins and a myriad of other things. The reason PT calls for 6+ grams is because thats what has been deemed to be the minimum to not only give the body what it needs for day to day operation but to have the excess to repair past damage.
MG is one shortage that can cause afib, but so can the shortage of many other nutrients. My research indicated that beta blockers had no impact on life span, all they did was treat the symptom of afib and then only in some cases, had many sides and offered no tangible benefit so I opted to self treat. This endeavor involved 20+ hours of research a week for many many months. I spent my time learning about the heart and what causes it to beat and all of the things that can contribute to afib. The list is actually quite long and while PT doesnt specifically mention afib, a lot of people who have had other CAD issues had afib as well and many of them who went on PT reversed blockages and all the sides associated with them, including angina and afib. The underlying process by which PT heals arterial damage is also critical to all collagen based tissue in the body. As someone who had been struggling with some major bouts of tendinitis in my elbows from years of lifting Vit C was a no brainer so I started PT and ended up on this form.
The journey didnt stop there however, potassium and magnesium, salt and various other nutrients all play critical roles in human health and specifically heart health. As I approach 50 my list of symptoms wasnt short, as I have previously mentioned, so it became more than about just dealing with afib but improving my whole quality of life. I began to pick a nutrient and spend some time focusing on it, whats its used for by the body, the pros and cons of too much/too little. The impact that nutrient has on the bodies use of other nutrients etc. Then over about a 6 month windo I began to add things all the while continuing to research, specifically looking at work by medical practitioners experienced with the practice of using nutrients like S. Pacholick for B12, Dr Levy for Vit C and other things, cathcart, hoffer, Saul, Foster, Brownstien and the list goes on. These guys dont have studies in the journals because the journals wont publish their work, there is no money in it and it takes money out of the pockets of the drug companies who sponsor the mags. However these docs have years of medical practice under their belts and have written case studies and put together data from their practices which encompasses thousands of patients.
I also spent a lot of time on pub med looking at journal papers and at the end of the day for every paper stating something about nutrition there is often another stating the opposite. There is a complex interaction between nutrients in the body and most of the studies that are done on nutrients are done with blinders on. The average reader is unaware of the interactions between nutrients so when the article simply stated adding X caused Y they took it to heart not realizing that to someone with the knowledge of how that nutrient worked the results were as expected. One example is iodine, there are quite a few studies out there showing that adding significant amounts of iodine actually caused hypothyroidism more often than not supplementing. Most people would read that and say iodine = bad.
The truth however is that iodine is essential to life and while a great many of these studies arent wrong (ie iodine alone can increase chance of hypo) they do not paint a complete picture. The study in its strictest sense proved what it set out to and thats simply what effect does adding iodine supplementation have? But there is a bigger picture. Iodine is one of the base elements used by the body to create thyroxins so an absence of iodine means the body can not produce an optimal amount of them. You add in the ingredients for the body to make more and it will make more. So if the body can make more then why were people who supplemented more likely to go hypo? Because the process of thyroxin creation in the thyroid also creates toxic byproducts. These byproducts are neutralized by selenium based enzymes and in the absence of selenium these toxins cant be neutralized and cause thyroid damage which actually causes the hypo. Add selenium into the mix along with the iodine and the problems goes away.
So long story longer, if one is not intimately familiar with the process being discusses in many of the pub med articles they can lead one to believe something is bad or ineffective when in reality iodine supplementation has been used by many docs for many generations with excellent results. I know personally all of my thyroid labs have changed since I started iodine. I was in range and told "your fine" at the start by my symptoms said otherwise. Now my labs are still in range, generally just a couple tenths of a point higher but all my hypo symptoms are gone and I actually have to force myself to consume more food than I would normally eat to maintain my mass gained in the gym.
As for B12, its scientifically linked to fertility and if one digs hard enough you will probably find data to support that most people who use a fertility clinic are deficient in it or some other nutrient. Its also essential for proper nerve signaling and red blood cell creation. Its absorption is heavily influenced by gut health and other genetic factors with its primary source being animal protien, which as we age becomes harder and harder to digest. There is a vast population on the net suffering from B12 deficiency and they spend a lot of time on forums like this. With the input of thousands of supplementing individuals some brands clearly stood out as superior, source naturals being one of them and the brand I started with. The reason I have switched is because some of the places I used to order from online would take my order even if the product wasnt in stock and I would end up running out and have to grab what ever I could. This was also a good way for me to experiment with other brands. My testing methodology is not very scientific because I use my symptoms and how I feel as my guide. Im not going to spend the money on lab tests or doctors to tell me I am fine when my symptoms tell me otherwise.
The first thing I noticed when I started taking B12 was kind of a "high". Like I slammed a pot of coffee but without the jitters. Having consistently lifted in the gym for many years I generally dont get sore unless I have a week or more layoff. Out of no where I started getting sore, a very deep sore. Almost as if my body was able to recruit new muscle fibers previously untouched. This could be due to an improvement in nerve signalling as B12 is essential for nerve health. I also found my cardio sessions easier and my cardio performance began to improve. Once again just speculation (much like your mothers bruising and vit C) but B12 is critical for red blood cell health which carries oxygen. I alo had been suffering from an inability to sleep soundly, tossed and turned all night and maybe once every few months would actually sleep deep enough to dream. I started sleeping great and dreaming every night. Once I switched to a different brand my cardio performance waned and sleep began to deteriorate. Once back on source naturals sleep improved again and once again I got sore with no missed workouts.
When it comes to nutrition your very unlikely to find a smoking gun so to speak, most people, for a myriad of reasons, are at least mildly deficient in multiple nutrients. It didnt take me long to realize that trying to pinpoint specific causes and solution would not only be extremely difficult and time consuming but also delay the improvement in my quality of life so I simply took a holistic approach and added in everything I think I needed and then some.
As for DIM controlling estrogen, it has gotten high praise but I never mentioned DIM.
sheesh and you accuse me of asking questions within questions!
I am still agreeing with most of this, that's not changed.
The issue I still have is what can I get my 66yo/lawyer(busy) dad to do?
Can I get him to try pills(which he has a hard time taking?) and give me abstract feelings about how he feels?
(recall I still live 4-5 hours from him and see him maybe 2-4x a/yr)
so it really has to come from him, much as my mom is into fitness and gets my dad healthy only because he does what she does.
I also understand the american view, we don't want to work, we want to be able to spot reduce our abs and eat whatever we want..
you and I are in much agreement that things are interconnected within the body.
still leaves me with little notions what to do next for my dad.
I understand about how you felt on B-12, I am the same way when I started eaing rhubarb./argula..\foods high in nitrates,I get a huge rush, especially when I add raw garlic.
My dad has been getting enough iodine for years, from whole eggs, which I never liked him to eat since the arachidonic acid might increase inflammation, yet he still eats about 12-18whole eggs/week,. he has .2 HS-CRP, so low inflammation.
should he eat 60eggs/week to get enough idoine?
what supplement do you take for idoine? I might start taking it. or just eat cranberries!
I only mentioned the DIM to show I am not big on drugs, I am big on solutions. DIM has science behind it, yet no studies showing it lowers e2, yet lots of great anecdotal evidence, so It's part of my "meds". I havent gotten my dad to start it yet, but soon my mom will be home(she is the one who feeds him and makes sure he gets his pills etc.
exitium wrote:Not only did I do my homework (gained knowledge) but I acted upon it and I am happy to report that my actions have served me well, basically addressing all of my quality of life issues the doctors refused to acknowledge. I have done the same for friends and family and they have all benefited as well. Most of them dont want to know the intricate details and probably wouldnt understand them, they just wanted help which the medical community has been denying them, which from the sounds of things is a scenario you are all too familiar with.
sorta....at the same time I need to know the why,so I can explain it to my lawyer parents,who want to know why they have to do this G-D "stuff".
exitium wrote:Your above comment doesnt seem to ring true with your actions. what actions? telling my parents what to do? vague accusations like that arent helping anyoneOne minute you tell me action is what matters and the next you refuse to actanother incorrect/vague accusation because you want the knowledge (ie proof) before you act. Believe me, I can understand and sympathize with your skepticism, I was there once myself. After all, who wouldnt be the way that modern society pushes pills at us and the docs seems to brush off all of our quality of life issues as just part of getting old.
reread my comment.
what someone thinks or understands doesnt mean much, what matters is what they do, right?It makes perfect sense.
I don't need to understand any of the "why" you do stuff, do I? If I just do it
the issue you and I are having is to explain WHY you do stuff. and the issues we have with reading.
I don't refuse to act?
what have I refused to act on?
recall, any advice you actually give me something tangible, I have done,
1 gotten my dad to eat shrimp/cranberries/spinach.for.Iodine/seliume/MG
2 7grams/day vitamin C
that's it for him, lots of long ass posts and nothing else tangible for him
except the vague,"take much more of everything! once you' find what's missing, that'll fix his high E./low T!"
which is vague, you might as well say, "be awesome"
and not realistic, as I've said you cant recolor hair by a missing "vitamin" you are just aging.
besides, I have no way to go about that, as you've said, your method of testing b12, etc isnt scientific and doesnt work, as you still have afib. yet my dad, on meds for afib has never had afib since starting the meds(neighbors pool)
exitium wrote:While I didnt go into a whole lot of specifics, mainly because I dont readily have links to back my claim and honestly I am not going to waste the time digging them up, the takeaway here is that my opinion is you should start at the foundation. The same things you seem to believe about vit C apply to basically all nutrients:
1) When there is a shortage bodily process can not perform optimally
2) higher levels than what are needed for day to day operation are required to make up for a past shortage.
Think of it this way. You have a pool in your back yard. It looses 10 gallons a day to evaporation. Every sunday you run a hose over and add in 70 gallons and fill it back up. Now you go on vacation for 12 weeks and your pool is down (12*700 = 840) 840 gallons. You get home on a sunday and its back to your normal plan, you run a hose over to the pool and put in 70 gallons. Your still down 770 gallons from where you should be. Yes, its still a pool and you can still swim buts not full (ie optimal).
You cant go on vacation from consuming essential nutrients and just take in daily requirements and make up for past shortage.
P.S. Please note none of the above was meant to be inflammatory so please dont take it that way. I wouldnt have wasted the time writing it if all I wanted to do was insult you.
Im not, in fact, the opposite, I realize writing all this has been a long process for you and I
greatly appreciate itI don't understand how the pool analogy works regarding VC?
so the amount of VC I need is based on how old I am or how long I've had atrial scurvy?
Im still needing to lower my dad's e2, as that can lead to prostate cancer/death. I'm working on studies to give to his MD about lowering e2, not raising T, yet.
The problem still remains, using your
pool analogy.. if he has low X, due to not getting it in his colorful diet, and missing X gives him lowT/high E, does have time to replenish X before he jumps in the empty pool and dies/hurts his health?
why not go on HRT, (go to the neighbors full pool) and fix his issues?