Correct Intravenous Vitamin C Protocol (Now you tell me!)

[ofonorow]

Always follow large/fast with low/slow.

I'll keep chronicling my illness which began in June 2011 http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9194 But it turns out there is a right way and a wrong way to administer the "ultra safe" intravenous vitamin C.

Especially for a person like me with a super high RA (Rheumatoid) Factor.

1. Vitamin C can and will cause a herxheimer reaction at a certain dosage, and "every one knows" you need to follow that up almost immediately with a much smaller "antioxidant" IV dosage (to clean out the debris without generating more toxic garbage.)

2. The effective dosage differs significantly depending whether you are using Cathcart's sodium ascorbate or a commercial (now bioniche) injectible. Most doctors are used to the commercial vials, but they are vastly less effective creating the herx reaction when compared to Cathcart's method of making sodium ascorbate. If you have no experience with Cathcart - you may never experience a herx with vitamin C, (and that may be perfect for drips after dental work, where the intent is to heal and clean up debris.)

I will clean this up and I see about one weeks worth of reading I have missed in other topics.. sigh

DISCUSSION

Even though I agree with Dr. Levy that all vitamin C really does is donate electrons, and
if you gave 300 g to a healthy person without toxins, there would be no reaction. (I also agree with Thomas Hesselink that very few such "healthy" people exist in today's world.)

So when I say there is a "prooxidant" dosage, it merely means there is a toxin that when vitamin C comes close, causes a reaction leading to an "explosion of debris." Think of the reaction to a high electrical current.

In my case a 100 g commercial (bioniche) fast drip barely caused such a "prooxidant" reaction. (It came so slowly - RA symptoms - I never associated it with the IV/C!)

But a 50 g Cathcart style sodium ascorbate slow drip had a large herx, almost as bad as a 150 g Catchart-style (which removed the use of my arms/fingers and I almost lost the use of my legs.)

So 100 g commercial - no herx, 50 g Cathcart - herx!

This means, if true in general, that when our vials with sodium ascorbate powder hit the market - doctors use to BioNiche/Commerical, will be giving their patients about twice the effective dosage, and if they don't know about this, will begin seeing lots of scary herxheimers. Not sure how to deal with that, but this post is a start.

Today I found that a 25 g Bio Niche IV (I was chicken to use a Cathcart) can be used to mop up, and in my case (high RA) we added a form of cortizone, as I understand it.)

Hello Owen,

The suggested pre-medication before mop-up or higher-dosed vitamin C infusions is Solu Cortef, 100 mg slow IV push directly before commencing the C infusion. Solu Cortef is a brand-name drug that I used many years ago; I see nothing wrong with using the generic preparation, if that currently exists and is an option for your doc.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy

Added above because with a high RA factor - this could be key to feeling "normal" Worked like a charm and I want all my IVs with this first!

So next time, I'll find out if a 12.5g Cathcart can perform the same antioxidant/mop up
function. Nervous, but I know that a 50 g Cathcart will otherwise cause a massive herx.
(I always have the prednizone). And Dr. Levy says you can give the smaller slow drip mop up immediately after the large/fast drip (if you have all day.) So you don't have to feel the Herx at all (if you doctor, unlike me, knows what they are doing!)

So comments like this from johnwen,

If you have read Dr. Klenner reports you'll notice he always followed up his initial high dosage infusions with 2-4 Grams V-C IM injections every 4 to 8 hours for a few days after, then to oral dosing after. Now you know why!!

and another doctor friend of the Foundation wrote me:

I recommend you taking up to 40g (no more) sodium ascorbate in 500 ml infusion say 10 to 12 hours apart,

You can have a continuous drip but anything above 60 gram sodium ascorbate, one need to add 10 cc calcium gluconate into the subsequent 60 g drip because of risk of hypocalcaemia. This is what you need to remember, anything more than 60g,need to add calcium gluconate, Dr Klenner protocol.

Over the years, I found in my practice, I need to give one 30g and maximum another 30g drip in the evening and for one or two days, 90% patients do well in the febrile patients from what ever cause with oral dose of 2 to 3 grams every 4 to 6 hours or bowel tolerance,etc,

all start to make sense!

Now they tell me!

[Jacquie]

It's almost like vitamin C can be too powerful. It doesn't directly hurt our bodies at all, but all the corpses left behind after it comes blazing through town can sure stink the place up.

Like Dr. Levy said about tumor necrosis:

In rare cancer patients with a very high physical mass of susceptible tumor, this reaction can occur with relatively low amounts of infused vitamin C, as the tumor cells lyse very readily; thus the reason that cancer patients should have some graded increase in their infusions over time, after a lower-dosed start.

It happens to dogs, too:
http://lib.vet.chula.ac.th/Data_files/e ... /PD024.pdf
http://lib.vet.chula.ac.th/Data_files/e ... /PD023.pdf

[ofonorow]

This from "Mike" whose observations in his mercury poisoned sister start it all - at least from me!

Hi Owen,


First of all...Dr. Levy is in my honest opinion is an absolute genius. At best I have simply had the sense to read his material and follow his guidelines. However, this concept is foreign to me of doing another dose that is slower to reduce the herx. I will try it on my brother and let you know..give me a week or so.


I have noticed my sister and brother had so slow the drips per minute down or she would get all types of reactions..meaning the vitamin c was pulling toxins out too fast.


Dr. Huggins which Dr. Levy worked with used to use a drip at about 1 drop per second..he said any faster and it gets wasted...in the urine..however he was using this while at the same time removing mercury from the mouth...a slow drip makes sense to keep a constant supply in the bloodstream to neutralize the mercury that gets into the blood.


I have noticed that my sister and brother would get major herx from 100 gram Cathcart Vitamin c drips..but then afterwords would take about 2 lypo per hour to help "deal" with the herx.


Also when my sister was really ill with a localized infection from dead teeth that we could not get to with the vitamin c drip because they were caviations..I learned to only do about a 50 gram drip to keep her feeling good..but any more and she would crash..that was a "maintenance" dose she needed to stay alive until the problem with the dead teeth was found and fixed..she had to have all her front teeth pulled.


Maybe if you could ask Dr. Levy if after a major 100gram cathcart c drip..if rather than having to have an iv in for another 4 hours...once could take a lypo c every 30 minutes or so for 4 hrs instead?
That would be a lot more practical than being hooked up to a vitamin c drip for 8 plus hours a day.

First, it is not foreign to experienced doctors, especially those I think are used to making their own sodium ascorbate (and those that don't probably don't see the Herx anyway.) As one of contributors wrote, even as far back as Klenner recommended IM 2-4 g every 4 to 8 hours after a large infusion.

I agree completely with your assessment of Dr. Levy, but I think from private correspondence that even he was not aware of your observation that one form could be twice as powerful as another. You deserve the Vitamin C Foundation Outstanding Achievement Award for bringing this to our attention! (We'll send you the certificate soon! You are the first by the way

[ofonorow]

[Johnwen]

Owen:
Just a couple of quick questions!

Are you still taking your regular oral V-C regimen??

During the course of your IV-C did you eat or drink anything??

LIMIT very very little if any on the steroids. Not good!!!

[Johnwen]

After reading Owens experiences he's going thru. I was thinking someone reading these posts is saying to them self."God I wouldn't want to go thru that! This V-C Iv stuff is terrible!" Unfortunely,"Sometimes one has to go thru Hell to get to Heaven!" but this can happen when one does not know what kind of pathogen their dealing with. In this case you have to hit it as hard as you can and look for reactions and adjust dosing to accomidate. This is done more often then not in conventional medicine and reactions are expected. For those who don't know what a Herxheimer reaction is here's a post that push's books on with quotes from the authors it's pretty comprehensive.

http://www.naturalpedia.com/Herxheimer_reaction.html

This one give a breif description and some helpful tips. Their pushing a Detox procedure but again the body reacts the same way.

http://www.healthy-communications.com/detoxpage.html

Hope this helps in our quest for knowledge and releif

[ofonorow]

First, what I went through was terrible - because I did everything wrong. But I have learned in a way not otherwise possible (as has the alt doc going along for the ride with me. As you know, all you MDs consider yourselves God - infallible - and it is especially hard to teach old dogs new tricks, when they think they know everything about vitamin C. So there may have been no other way.)

But the good news, and I am in the process of verifying that you can do this RIGHT - with virtually no Herx. Just like Dr. Levy said. It means that we may be able to pull mercury from the brain in autistic kids, make sure it doesn't get reabsorbed with the Meyers/Shade IMD products, without any HERXHEIMERS. What will that mean to all these families of low mercury excretors?

Owen:
Just a couple of quick questions!

Are you still taking your regular oral V-C regimen??

During the course of your IV-C did you eat or drink anything??

LIMIT very very little if any on the steroids. Not good!!!

Well oral round the clock, as 1 g every 15-30 min provides the only relief other than pred. However bowel tolerance vely tricky. Five Lypo-C did keep the normalcy - say every couple of hours until I had to sleep. So I now alternate between Lypo and pills, but I have been taking Lypo like Candy. $$$$ (Does anyone know if a Live Cell microscope can see liposomes? If so, we may have a way to evaluate the home made lipos.)

The first time I brought water/snacks based on my reading. I may have drunk water/ice tea, nothing eaten after the first time.

I KNOW - steroids BAD - but it was either them or the Hospital - where I knew their only recourse were more steroids. I hope to avoid the issue with a series of 3 hour "antioxidant" slow/low drip carthcart IVs every 12 hours - until I don't need them. If this turns out to be perpetual, then I plan to attack this with VERY high dose Cathcart IVs, followed by another series of antioxidant slow/low IVs. I think the antioxidant IVs should be followed by a Glutathione push, which may speed up the clean up process.

So what do you think is causing this "mammoth" toxic load in me??????

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Fungal infection makes the most sense - and is the least sinister. (My cousin rides with the bikers to Montana/Dakotas - thinking of trying to get about 100,000 bikers as body guards until I read this.)

This could have all started from that fall during the ice storm

which led not only to all these CT cat scans (if they are somehow "damaging" me - why the indication of toxic load - why not general health failure?)

And weeks of intense antibiotics -both during/after pancreatic surgery and then this episode.

My intuitive friend is convinced, and while I am still waiting for live cell report, I saw fungus.

So what is the answer? Garlic?

[ofonorow]

This should probably be recounted under my chronicle of the bioweapon (or fungus) that has me. But I now realize that I can use my totally predictable body RA symptom reaction and herx to understand the ratio between Lypo-C and IV/C, as well as to evaluate whether homemade liposomal products are or can be as effective! I can be the guinea pig.

So as soon as I know I can "feel normal" at will - even with a 12.5 g cathcart - I was planning on curing myself, to start the process of 50 g cathcart, followed by mop ups. In Dr. Levy's email about the 50% reduction in Herx each time, this effort should require about 4 of these - each time reaction is half - and then maybe 4 more "big" ivs with insulin,

And given the theory - I want all mop ups to have the glutathione push at the end.

Dr. Diane M. - my holistic dentist and an angel herself has agreed to help, even come to my home to make the mop ups possible when my alt doc's office is closed

I feel like I can cure anything - better than the Antelman invention. Am I going overboard or missing something? Why couldn't I cure my sister-in-law's Rheum.Arthritis exactly the same way?

Well one reason is the need for 3 hour IVs every 12 hours - almost requires a 24 hour clinic setting.

So it just occurred to me that I can now "evaluate" how well Livon Labs Lypo-C compares to say a 12.5 g Cathcart IV. I can use my own body's reaction/herx.

I did question the idea that 5 Lypo-Cs were equivalent to a 50 g IV - maybe to a BioNiche/Commercial IV! (Not a Cathcart sodium ascorbate IV). In fact, I don't
think that 5 reaches the equivalence (ability to remove all my herx symptoms temporarily) of the 25 Bioniche. But, they were able to keep things in check (5 Lypo-C) until I slept. So, if I wanted to put myself through this, I should be able to find if you can reach an equivalence, say 10 or even 15 Lypo-C, of the 12.5C/50. In this way, the only issue is expense. We could avoid the Herx - using Lypo-C instead of the 12 hour separated ivs - maybe 3 hour separated 10 Lypos...

But I think my initial assessment that Dr. Thomas Levy deserves the Nobel Price in Medicine for the insight/reduction in Primal Panacea may have understated the case.

[ofonorow]

Finding #1. You cannot achieve NORMALCY with ascorbic acid pills orally. (You can feel much better though)

Finding #2. (investigating) Can you achieve NORMALCY with oral sodium ascorbate by mouth? (Doubt it, but checking.)

Miraculous resulted added Dec 2, 2011

I gave my brother a 100 gram freshly made Cathcart IVC injection last night as fast as it would run.
He had the usual symptoms..although less than when we first started 2 yrs ago.. He (within 10 minutes of starting the drip) has intense eye "burning" ..his eyes become blood red..sensitivity to sound, light, and "burning" about the head..overall he can't even tolerate the sound of the TV or any light..all lights have to be shut off. (2 yrs ago when we first started he literally within 10 minutes of the Cathcart drip..(no detox from the mcguff) he His eyes were so red you could barely see the whites of his eyes..He started to burn in his head so badly that he was jerking around ..i thought he may be having a deadly reaction..but knew better and kept the iv in. He was so bad 2 yrs ago he looked like he had just done a ton of crack or PCP. The drugs that were in his brain were actually worse than PCP..benzo's...the worst drug on the planet legal or not. Big pharma teaches docs to give them out like candy.



Normally for weeks..yes I said weeks..he feels like hell afterwards...it would normally take about 2 weeks for him to get over this..


Last night however..thanks to Owen and Dr. Levy..I tried a 25 gram 250cc drip with mcguff's non corn absorbic acid afterwards...within 10 minutes he was starting to feel better..and by 30 minutes..he wanted to watch tv..was laughing and joking and wanted the light back on..his bloodshot eyes cleared up and he was smiling saying he was feeling "happy"


THIS IS NOTHING SHORT OF AMAZING. I have staying with him now for 2.5 years trying to find the answer to detoxify him so that he would be free of "brain burning" when we detoxified with one method or another. I have been trying to detoxify him for 12 yrs!


He woke up this morning feeling good..although not perfect..WAY WAY BETTER than he has ever felt after a drip..normally the next day his eyes are so red he doesn't want to get out of bed..instead he was up and laughing and joking.


We tried the same thing with a slow Cathcart drip a couple days ago..and he was 70% better after the slow Cathcart..but the absorbic acid iv from mcguff was much better at alleviating Herx reaction.


Owen and Dr. LEVY ..THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.


I have spent thousands of hours and countless time and money trying to figure out how to eliminate the poisons in his brain but always hit a wall because he could only do very limited detox..now..I will wipe out the poisons in his brain that he was given from vaccines and years of benzodiazepines and other meds that damn near killed him.


We will try this with my sister soon and let you know.

[ofonorow]

Summary of what I think I have learned.



1. Different strengths of IV/C for injection are available with markedly different properties.

2. A toxin free person has no reaction to any form IV/C - even a Cathcart-style sodium ascorbate drip, but if the patient does have toxins, there will be enough of a reaction that the immune system will notice and you can tell where the toxins are. A diagnostic tool.

3. If toxins are present, then a slower, low power follow-up IV/C drip, sometimes referred to as a "antioxidant" drip (as if the first drip is "prooxidant") can remove discomfort from the patient.

4. Dr. Cathcart specialized in infectious diseases, primarily viral infections. What I have been dealing with myself are toxic loads - caused by heavy metals or pathogens in or around the teeth! These are different animals. Vitamin C's primary effect in this realm is detoxification - making the toxin inert.

5. Anecdotally, the pH of commercial drips is too low, harming (sclerosis) veins. This does not happen with Cathcart-style sodium ascorbate.

If alt docs familiar with IV/C have different opinions, I would appreciate their input.


International Intravenous Vitamin C Association (iivca.org)

In an effort to spread this knowledge and connect patients with IV/C doctors, we are considering forming an international organization of medical doctors who perform IV/C. This will be a very private organization, and we may fly to meet any doctor and visit their practice before allowing them "in." The purpose will be to provide training and the very best information on how to use IV/C effectively in their practice. If the doc is willing to conform to certain principles/guidelines, such as the use of Cathcart-style sodium ascorbate, then they can become Vitamin C Foundation Approved. We hope to help patients who want IV/C to connect with these doctors, and the Foundation will try to help those in need get IV vitamin C treatments.

Suggestions for a better names for the org appreciated! Don't be shy!

[ofonorow]

Note the dosages (250 g) that can now be given with the two stage (hot/cold) infusions.

Owen,

I just did a 200 gram fresh Cathcart (hot) drip for my brother last night. He dropped the bags ..each 900cc in lactated ringers in 2 and half hours...then we did a 500cc bag with 50gram mcguff non corn..


Buy the end of the mcguff (cold) bag his terrible herx was relieved and he was laughing and smiling again...this is a after he was burning in his eyes and head...and had major herx during the 200 gram drip.

[Croatia]

Fungal infection makes the most sense - and is the least sinister. (My cousin rides with the bikers to Montana/Dakotas - thinking of trying to get about 100,000 bikers as body guards until I read this.)

This could have all started from that fall during the ice storm

which led not only to all these CT cat scans (if they are somehow "damaging" me - why the indication of toxic load - why not general health failure?)

And weeks of intense antibiotics -both during/after pancreatic surgery and then this episode.

My intuitive friend is convinced, and while I am still waiting for live cell report, I saw fungus.

So what is the answer? Garlic?

Hi Owen,

Weeks of intense antibiotics, I would bet you have candida. Candida is a very common thing after taking antibiotics.

Last year i took cipro for three days and was very sick for 6 months. Long story short, i had a blood test for allergies and discovered I had very high candida levels. I had many symptoms which i wont get into as the list is way to long.

Candida is damn tough to beat, so if you figure out a way, let me know.

I currently take an antifungal that contains caprylic acid, pau d'arco, black walnut and oregano oil. I will also alternate in apple cider vinegar, real coconut oil and some oregano oil. I have yet to get up to the doses I want as the die off reactions are so bad.

take care.

[ofonorow]

Dr. Bush, now in his 80s, thought he had candida, is now well, and credited MSM for a large part of his recovery.

However, in my case, I was susceptible to these infections, in part due to abscessed tonsil(s) and other sites of infection in my mouth, but mostly due to my aging body's inability to make enough cortisol!

Now that I have corrected the mouth - and am taking replacement cortisol - I am well!

And I must say, that when the symptoms of the cortisol deficiency got really bad (like rhuematoid arthritis), i.e., widespread pain and inflammation, I had trouble walking and thought I'd be spend a lot of my future in a wheel chair. Now, thanks to Dr. Jefferies (Safe Uses of Cortisol), I am playing tennis daily with my wife!