Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

[samarkand]

@ Lemon Planet
Many thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I had an issue with liver numbers taken 2 months ago. Suggested to my homeopathic doctor that perhaps all the many supplements might be the cause. She agreed and I stopped all and halved the Ascosine9. Magically the liver numbers came right on a blood test 6 weeks later.

2 June. GGT U/L 75. After stopping supplements - 17th July 38 Ref Range <60

2 June ALT U/L 52. After stopping supplements -17th July 17 Ref range <45

Now this morning I took a Koncentrated K (4167% daily value) and a number of other supplements, and my BP was very high at lunchtime 220/85. As hospital advised if BP over 200 to take an extra 5mg BP pill Lisinopril (ACE). We also use New Zealand spinach in soups - that also has a high 'K' count. (100 grams = 270% daily value).

**********Could 'K' be the culprit? ***********

********From now I will stop all supplements and see if there is any improvement********

Perhaps I should continue with Ascorsine9 - Tower's most powerful Pauling therapy drink mix. ????

A-9 formula contains everything in the basic Heart Technology with more proline and vitamin A, and A-9 adds chondroitin sulfate CS/C, taurine, and magnesium creatine chelate.

2 scoops per day. Ingredients Per Daily Serving:
L-ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 3,000 mg,
L-lysine 2,800 mg,
chondroitin sulfate CS/C 1,000 mg,
L-taurine 1,000 mg, L-proline 500 mg,
vitamin A 8,500 IU,
vitamin E 422 IU,
L-arginine 200 mg,
vitamin B6 50 mg, magnesium 150 mg
creatine 844 mg,
vitamin B2 2 mg,
folic acid 400 mcg,
stevia 55 mg.


Current BP meds I'm taking suggested by hospital.
Morning - Candestatan - 8mg, Amlodopine (CCB) 5mg
Evening - Candestatan - 8mg
Waking BP after 8 hours rest still 160 -180/-
Back up - Lisinopril (ACE) 5mg - two allowed if BP over 200/-

[pamojja]

I wonder if the variety of supplements you are taking are becoming toxic to your liver. I would worry most about the fat-soluble vitamins because they can cause toxicity at high levels. There are some things you have that are outside my experience so that is mysterious. The combination supplements make figuring out the reason for your spike more complicated.

Years ago had NAFLD. Later some scar tissues in liver (ultra-sound) while the fattly liver had gone. Since starting very comprehensive supplementation also the scars in liver disappeared.

In my case only high dose niacin (3 g every day), a glass of wine along with vitamin A increased liver-enzymes slightly above optimal. Not zillions of other supplements- Also not any other fat-solubles, even with high dose vitamin A, after quiting my daily glass of wine again, values came down to nomal again. The rises through niacin easily counteracted with liver supporting supplements (milk thistle extract, ALA, choline, LIV.52, etc.).

The much more likely reason for raised liver-enzymes on comprehensive supplementation in this case probably is, that through the unused to abundance of nutrients certain detox-pathways started to work really well, so instead of storing everything away in brain or fat-tissue, now the liver has to work overhours to excrete all that additional stuff.

Instead of quitting or reducing supplementation, I would add liver-detox supporting nutrients.

[Lemon Planet]

samarkand-

I get the impression you know a lot about these vitamins. I just megadose with Vitamin C and keep the rest just healthy doses. Maybe your BP spike was not related to toxins as was mine.

My blood vessels normally are very prominent in my hands for example except when my BP spiked and the vessels disappeared. I consider that a sign of the bad angiotensins constricting my blood vessels. Your problem could be different if you didn't notice the same thing.

I agree the K-1 would certainly be suspect. I take one Super-K every day and notice that cured my easy bruising. The bruising could have been due to the daily vitamin E.

The Super-K has K-1 and K-2 so the K-1 can increase the clotting. Too much K-1 would seem to risk clotting or maybe thickening of the blood and so increasing the blood pressure.

I think I might switch from Super-K to just K-2 and see if my easy bruising returns. I know the Lysine removes cholesterol deposits very rapidly as Pauling discovered and now wonder how long the K-2 takes to remove the calcium deposits. If your arteries are already clean then there should be no problem stopping the K-2 long enough for your blood chemistry to stabilize if that is the problem.

Also, the amylodapine can cause swelling around the ankles. After my blood test they wanted to give me statins for the cholesterol and I said no and started lecturing about Pauling's chemistry.

[pamojja]

Too much K-1 would seem to risk clotting or maybe thickening of the blood and so increasing the blood pressure.

Inform here about the imposibilty of too much K vitamins thickening the blood: https://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=Clotting

[Lemon Planet]

OK. Nevermind my Vitamin K worries. I am glad somebody here knows what they are talking about.

The referenced k-vitamins.com article is confusing about the various forms of K and what is actually being studied. Fortunately, wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K also confirms the safety of the K1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytomenadione and K2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K2:

There is no known toxicity associated with high doses of menaquinones (vitamin K2). Unlike the other fat-soluble vitamins, vitamin K is not stored in any significant quantity in the liver; therefore the toxic level is not a described problem. All data available as of 2017 demonstrate that vitamin K has no adverse effects in healthy subjects.[citation needed] The recommendations for the daily intake of vitamin K, as issued recently by the US Institute of Medicine, also acknowledge the wide safety margin of vitamin K: "a search of the literature revealed no evidence of toxicity associated with the intake of either K1 or K2".

samarkand-
I have no other ideas about your blood pressure spike. Stopping the supplements and fasting sounds smart. I fasted for a week once having only Vitamin C with black coffee in the morning and diet soda in the afternoon. The second day was the worst then beginning with the third day was a nice calming and quieting feeling.

[samarkand]

Thanks for your information, ideas, suggestions. I will be working through these and making some adjustments.

Current situation.
Yesterday Before bed a major improvement in BP 143/73/46
Meds Candastatan 8 mg morning and evening, 2.5 Amlodipine morning , 5mg Lisinopril as booster.
No supplements except for Ascorsice9 - 2 scoops

Today on waking 148/74/43
Today before lunch 156/83/52
There seems to be some very good improvements.
Thank you my friends for your prayers.

Todays Meds
Candastatan 8 mg morning and evening, 2.5 Amlodipine morning. No Lisinopril needed so far

Supplements. Ascorsice9 Morning and evening. 4 scoops
Lysine 1000mg
SAme (for homocysteine) 200mg

Lets see how it goes with BP later.

Instead of quitting or reducing supplementation, I would add liver-detox supporting nutrients.

I am agreeable for detox the liver.Would you consider Himalaya, Liver Care a good liver tonic? I have a bottle in the cupboard.

? Arjuna tree bark has a good tonic effect in the case of liver cirrhosis, normalizing blood pressure, heart rate.
?The root of spiny capers is used for diseases of the liver, spleen, for colds and rheumatic pains
? Black nightshade for gastritis, diseases of the gastrointestinal tract, liver and against worms.
? Chicory seeds - effective in diabetes, weight loss, improving intestinal microflora, for immunity and nervous system, purification of the liver and kidneys.
? Cassia seeds (Chinese coffee beans) reduce cholesterol, cleanse the liver, gastrointestinal tract, have antibacterial properties
? Yarrow is used for stomach ulcer, kidney stone disease, hemorrhoids, anemia, liver diseases, etc. .
? Tamarix has a diuretic, diaphoretic, astringent, analgesic and hemostatic effect. Useful for inflammation of the stomach, diarrhea, bleeding and diseases of the spleen.
Thanks nondrinker for this helpful summary

[samarkand]

Years ago had NAFLD. Later some scar tissues in liver (ultra-sound) while the fattly liver had gone. Since starting very comprehensive supplementation also the scars in liver disappeared.

In my case only high dose niacin (3 g every day), a glass of wine along with vitamin A increased liver-enzymes slightly above optimal. Not zillions of other supplements- Also not any other fat-solubles, even with high dose vitamin A, after quiting my daily glass of wine again, values came down to nomal again. The rises through niacin easily counteracted with liver supporting supplements (milk thistle extract, ALA, choline, LIV.52, etc.).

The much more likely reason for raised liver-enzymes on comprehensive supplementation in this case probably is, that through the unused to abundance of nutrients certain detox-pathways started to work really well, so instead of storing everything away in brain or fat-tissue, now the liver has to work overhours to excrete all that additional stuff.

Instead of quitting or reducing supplementation, I would add liver-detox supporting nutrients.

Liver tonic may be appropriate although liver numbers were good on the 2nd test. I had already considered a liver tonic after the previous bad liver numbers, and ordered two from the store. Himalaya, Liver Care mentioned in the previous post, and Native Remedies 'Liver Dr'

Native Remedies 'Liver Dr' Ingredients

Silybum marianus (Milk Thistle)
Taraxacum officinale (Common Dandelion)
Verbena officinalis (Common Vervian)

My homeopathic GP may make some suggestions on Monday re various ultra sounds.

[AngieLynn]

So this is all way over my head and I would appreciate if someone can tell me if liposomal vitamin c will work to clear plaque in the arteries? If so, has anyone figured out if you need to use the same dosages as with regular ascorbic acid? I have had ulcerative colitis and though I'm doing well with natural protocols, ascorbic acid irritates my gut.

Thanks.

[pamojja]

Vitamin C doesn't clear plaque in the artheries. By maintaining and repairing collagen, preventing oxidation damage, it does prevent it from being created in the first place. And if plaque is already present, it along with co-factors (vitamin A, all Bs, D3, 8 froms of vitamin E, K2, CoQ10, magnesium, potassium, zinc, selenium, iodine, lysine, arginine, taurine..) might stop plaque growing at its usual yearly growth rate of at least 30%, and thereby alone indeed preventing adverse events.

In some such a combination therapy indeed does reduce the plaque again. But ith vitamin C alone, though most important, thats very very unlikely.

[AngieLynn]

Thank you Pamojja.

So am I understanding correctly? The liposomal vitamin C as a part of a program might prevent new plaque but not remove old plaque?

Also, what I'm trying to determine is whether I can get around the oral pure ascorbic acid to clear plaque, as I don't tolerate it. I'm not even sure I can take the liposomal form of vitamin C successfully. So, if the objective of using ascorbic acid is to create collagen, could I take collagen along with the lysine and proline? Would that have any impact?

Lastly, you mentioned a lot of cofactors. Most of those don't appear to be on the Linus Pauling plan. I take some of them. Are they all required to remove plaque?

[pamojja]

Lastly, you mentioned a lot of cofactors. Most of those don't appear to be on the Linus Pauling plan. I take some of them. Are they all required to remove plaque?

Well, in his '86 book Linus Pauling recommended the following just to maintain good health:

How to Live Longer and Feel Better

• Take vitamin C every day, 6 grams to 18 g (6000 to 18,000 milligrams), or more. Do not miss a single day.
  
• Take vitamin E every day, 400 IU, 800 IU, or 1600 IU.
  
• Take one or two Super-B tablets every day, to provide good amounts of the B-vitamins.
  
• Take 25,000 IU vitamin A tablet every day.
  
• Take a mineral supplement every day, such as one tablet of the Bronson vitamin-mineral formula, which provides 100 mg of calcium, 18 mg of iron, 0.15 mg of iodine, 1 mg of copper, 25 mg of magnesium, 3 mg of manganese, 15 mg of zinc, 0.015 mg of molybdenum, 0.015 mg of chromium, and 0.015 mg of selenium.
  
• Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
  
• Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.
  
• Drink plenty of water every day.
  
• Keep active; take some exercise. Do not at any time exert yourself physically to an extent far beyond what you are accustomed to.
  
• Drink alcoholic beverages only in moderation.
  
• Do not smoke cigarettes.
  
• Avoid stress. Work at a job that you like. Be happy with your family.

With arterial plaque one is already very far beyond 'good health? - What makes you think in such a case one could do even without those basic strategies? - Rather then using the higher dosage recommendations, or beyond by titrating to bowel tolerance with vitamin C?

Also note, at the time of this book Vitamin D3, K2 or CoQ10 weren commercially available, so he couldn't include those.

So am I understanding correctly? The liposomal vitamin C as a part of a program might prevent new plaque but not remove old plaque?

Liposomal works just like vitamin C, with just a 50% increased intracellular absorbtion, which can easily be made up by using more of cheap ascorbic acid, or sodium ascorbate. Most people who do yearly CAC-scores on a full program find, that plaque reduces in very rare cases only. In most just the exponential growth is halted, which suffices to avoid advers effent.

Also, what I'm trying to determine is whether I can get around the oral pure ascorbic acid to clear plaque, as I don't tolerate it. I'm not even sure I can take the liposomal form of vitamin C successfully. So, if the objective of using ascorbic acid is to create collagen, could I take collagen along with the lysine and proline? Would that have any impact?

No way. Individual amino acids are building blocks, and vitamin C is the builder. One doesn't know if one can't tolerate sodium ascorbate or liposomal as long as one haven't tried it. Once these fail one can still use sodium ascorbate IVs.

[AngieLynn]

Thanks for the info. I have tried plain ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate orally and could not continue due to the colitis. I regularly take 25,000 mg of asorbic acid IV's with sodium bicarbinate added. But of course that's not daily. It's more like once every week or two.

When you say that one could still use the sodium ascorbate IV's, can that be used to remove plaque, or is that also just a way to stop progression of plaque? And is my weekly dose enough? Would I still be taking the lysine/proline 3-4 times daily?

[pamojja]

Thanks for the info. I have tried plain ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate orally and could not continue due to the colitis. I regularly take 25,000 mg of asorbic acid IV's with sodium bicarbinate added. But of course that's not daily. It's more like once every week or two.

When you say that one could still use the sodium ascorbate IV's, can that be used to remove plaque, or is that also just a way to stop progression of plaque? And is my weekly dose enough? Would I still be taking the lysine/proline 3-4 times daily?

How unfortunate you can't even tolerate pH-neutral sodium ascorbate, but good you already do get vitamin C IVs. IVs really only do their magic while on it, I doubt weekly is anywhere enough - but better than nothing. Plaque is there like a crust on a formely beeding wound, you really don't want it removed that fast. Vitamin C orally or per IV doesn't remove plaques. That usually is a very long healing process involving all neccesary co-factor nutrients.

First vulnerable soft plaque gets calcified (you never would want soft plaque to just loosen into the blood-stream - it would definitely cause an emergency blockage downstream in the finer arteries!) - but by slow remodeling by all the co-factors present.

With colitis by its actions you will be deficient of all essential nutrients, not only lysine and proline. Which kind of foods you're still able to tolerate?

[AngieLynn]

I'm on the SCD diet (specific carbohydrate) and paleo autoimmune though I've been able to add back in nuts and beans. I also tested for sensitivities and avoid things like pineapple, avocado, eggs, etc. I do get tested for some vitamins and I'm doing okay. I self-treated with diet and supplements and have gotten my calprotectin gut inflammation marker down to the lowest possible number. Yet I'm still sensitive to ascorbic acid.

So I guess the best I can do is try to avoid any further progression right now.