Ascorbic Acid versus Natural Vitamin C and C-complex
Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:19 am
https://www.vitamincfoundation.com/forum/
https://www.vitamincfoundation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758
What is the difference between scurvy and health? If you are on the ship in days of old and eat an orange or lemon, scurvy was eliminated. am I right? what has changed in the last 75 years to spur on CVD? haven't people been eating more fruits than ever or am I missing something? why would we need such massive amounts of C now to prevent CVD and not before? T
NaturopathMan wrote:Vitamin C complex and Ascorbic Acid are clearly two different things. Isolates do not occur in nature. Not only AA, but all vitamins are complexes.
In nature, things always work in synergy. You can view the differences btween vitamin C complex, synthetic ascorbic acid and naturally derived ascorbic acid under a high powered microscope. I suggest that you do this for yourselves if you have access to the equipment.
Does this mean that isolated ascorbic acid has no medicinal use? Of course not, it has many uses. Just keep in mind that when you use it this way you are not using it as a nutrient but as an isolate, more like a natural drug. This is why it has a much quicker and stronger effect than a whole food complex. Nature buffers things and does things in moderation so that there won't be side effects. This can be seen in the comparison of drugs and the herbs that contain the same drug like substance. Ascorbic acid, especially in large doses has a diferent physiological effect on the body than whole food vitamin C complex.
The uses of isolates like AA can have incredible medicinal effects if used properly in the short term. The problem is when you use these things over long periods, usually more than 2 or 3 months. What happens is that because a vitamin is a complex it can only be utilized with all the co factors, enzymes etc. The body can usually provide these things and in the short term it is not a problem but over time the body will not be able to provide sufficient amounts of these co factors and problems can arise. Deficiencies of the co factors can easily occur. Larges does of zinc over extended periods can induce a copper deficiency. Large doses of ascorbic acid over long periods of time can induce a bioflavaniod or tyrosinase (a form of copper) deficiencies.
There can be side effects that may not be connected to the use of the isolate. For example, I know of a patient who was using large doses of IV ascorbic acid for a medical treatment for many months. The therapy was useful but the patient began to suddenly get varicose veins on his legs and broken blood vessels on his face. I would guess that this was because there were not adequate bioflavanoids given along with the ascorbic acid but there may have been another cause. The point is there can be side effects with long term use of very high dose isolates that do not occur with whole foods or whole food suppplements.
I would suggest sticking to whole food supplemtents unless you have a particular case where you think isolated aa will be helpful and if so only use it short term.
Look into information on Szent-Gyorgy, the scientist who isolated ascorbic acid. He did not believe in using it inits isolated form.
One must realize that it is about the synergy, not the numbers. A much smaller amount of ascorbic acid can be better utilzed when it has its co factors then in a larger form in isolate form.
If one can't get past the numbers, you can always use Camu Camu or amla. These substances have very high amounts of ascorbic acid along with the co factors. I wonder what the effects of mega dosing these would be? Even if you are using isolate forms, why not include large doses of bioflavanoids, tyrosinase (can be islaoted from mushrooms)?
Hope this helps. I'm not trying to stir up a debate, only tring to instill more thoughts on the subject. There is a place for the long term use of whole food supplements and also a place for careful use of isolates. Beware, most ascorbic acid found on the market is synthetic. Most of it comes from the same sources and drug comapnies like Hoffman La Roche dominate this industry. I'm sure you have all heard the term Nutraceutical by now. Theres a reason for that term. Sounds a lot like pharmaceutical huh. While there is certainly money to be made in whole foods supplements, there is much more to be made in synthetic isolated nutraceuticals.
NaturopathMan wrote:Vitamin C complex and Ascorbic Acid are clearly two different things. Isolates do not occur in nature. Not only AA, but all vitamins are complexes.
In nature, things always work in synergy. You can view the differences btween vitamin C complex, synthetic ascorbic acid and naturally derived ascorbic acid under a high powered microscope. I suggest that you do this for yourselves if you have access to the equipment.
Does this mean that isolated ascorbic acid has no medicinal use? Of course not, it has many uses. Just keep in mind that when you use it this way you are not using it as a nutrient but as an isolate, more like a natural drug. This is why it has a much quicker and stronger effect than a whole food complex. Nature buffers things and does things in moderation so that there won't be side effects. This can be seen in the comparison of drugs and the herbs that contain the same drug like substance. Ascorbic acid, especially in large doses has a diferent physiological effect on the body than whole food vitamin C complex.
The uses of isolates like AA can have incredible medicinal effects if used properly in the short term. The problem is when you use these things over long periods, usually more than 2 or 3 months. What happens is that because a vitamin is a complex it can only be utilized with all the co factors, enzymes etc. The body can usually provide these things and in the short term it is not a problem but over time the body will not be able to provide sufficient amounts of these co factors and problems can arise. Deficiencies of the co factors can easily occur. Larges does of zinc over extended periods can induce a copper deficiency. Large doses of ascorbic acid over long periods of time can induce a bioflavaniod or tyrosinase (a form of copper) deficiencies.
I would suggest sticking to whole food supplemtents unless you have a particular case where you think isolated aa will be helpful and if so only use it short term.
Look into information on Szent-Gyorgy, the scientist who isolated ascorbic acid. He did not believe in using it inits isolated form.
If one can't get past the numbers, you can always use Camu Camu or amla. These substances have very high amounts of ascorbic acid along with the co factors. I wonder what the effects of mega dosing these would be? Even if you are using isolate forms, why not include large doses of bioflavanoids, tyrosinase (can be islaoted from mushrooms)?
I don't believe that this is a "genetic defect" but merely nature using its resources wisely.
Primates and guinea pigs consume thousands of milligrams in their daily diets so wouldn't it be wise for nature to allocate its limited resources elswhere? A deficiency of AA can't really be called the cause of cardiovascular disease even if it helps the situation once there is a disease state. Cardiovascular disease does not exist in primates on a wild diet.
My main point was in saying that the synergy is what makes things work better. So how can you know better than nature? It is such a complex arrangement of so many different chemicals, some of which we don't even know are there.
I don't think the complex that vitamin C is found in is always in the sam e ratios, but as far as I know certain other substances are always there.
One must realize that it is about the synergy, not the numbers. A much smaller amount of ascorbic acid can be better utilzed when it has its co factors then in a larger form in isolate form.
Where is the evidence of this? In fact, as discussed here, the Eskimos get their needed ascorbate from organs, usually adrenal glands. To my knowledge, the ascorbic acid in adrenal glands and organs contains NO complex.
Here is one study
Vitamin C
35% better absorbed in a natural citrus extract containing bioflavanoids, proteins, and carbohydrates than as synthetic ascorbic acid alone (Vinson JA, Bose P. Comparative bioavailability to humans of ascorbic acid alone or in a citrus extract. Am J Clin Nutr 48:601-04, 1988)
To me that says you can use 35% less of a natural compound to get the same amount of AA as a synthetic isolate. Of course, you are not getting the other natural food chemicals with the isolate that may have other benefits than just absorption.
Hi Dan,Dan106 wrote:...the Nobel Prize won by Pauling for "The CURE of heart disease"
I am curious what FORM of vitamin C is best to follow for positive results of keeping arteries clear and possibly unclogging existing clogged arteries.
I am currently on ascorbic acid 1000 mg capsules as I found the tablets too big and easy to get caught in your throat unless you take them with milk or something similar. If taken with water, they seem to get hung up half way down the throat.
Ralph Lotz wrote:Roche sold out to a Dutch company DSM.
Drugs are more profitable.
Isolates do occur in nature.
Example: How about elements.
You have confused what something is with what might make something work better.
Synergy is two or more different things creating a result greater than their mere sums.
B/T/W Tyrosinase can't exist in the first place without ascorbic acid.
If vitamins couldn't be isolated, then we wouldn't even know what they are.
Pernicious anemia is a B12 deficiency resulting from a lack of intrinsic factor in the stomach. B12 is the one and only cure that must be administered subligually or IM.
If there is a B12 complex, please enlighten me.
B-12 needs cobalt to be B-12.
B12 is the largest and most structurally complicated vitamin and can be produced industrially only through a bacterial fermentation-synthesis.
A common semi-synthetic form of the vitamin is cyanocobalamin, which doesn't occur in nature and is produced from bacterial hydroxocobalamin. Because of its stability and lower production cost, this form is used in many pharmaceuticals and supplements as well as a food additive. In the body it is converted into the human physiological forms methylcobalamin and 5'-deoxyadenosylcobalamin, leaving a cyanide ion, (CN?), albeit in a minimal concentration.[citation needed] Recently, hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin are being found in more expensive pharmacological products and food supplements;[citation needed] but their extra utility is currently debated.