Another Lypo-C Beats Viral Infection(s) Anecdote (Cortisol!)

[VanCanada]

[ofonorow]

Thx - low dose naltrexone was one of the things I tried (got a prescription for) early on, and I appreciate the reminder for the article I may write. I had read where LDN can take some time, so I may not have given it a fair trial, but it had NO effect on my symptoms after a week or two.

Only the evil methyl prednisolone worked - in the perfect (8 mg) replacement dose.

Who ever you are quoting above is apparently not aware of dosing - methotrexate is used on cancer in high dosages. In low dosages is one of the "safer" drugs for RA patients they can take. (This according to RA expert/Professor I met, who has it right about prednizone! A rare bird in orthodox med.) Which is why I am referring some of his (400) studies below!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15208176

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21044437

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21044424

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18687711

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14969080

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9566105

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16537578

Reading an article about methotrexate, if memory serves, it is related to folic acid - if not an analog, then a mirror image, e.g.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9844757

Disclaimer: For forum readers who now consider me a hypocrite for citing studies, I have two things to say. First, I have met Dr. Pincus, and he is interested in the truth. Second, I noted posting these links that many are missing even the abstract in pubmed!!

[gofanu]

For God's sake-
"methotrexate, if memory serves, it is related to folic acid - if not an analog, then a mirror image, e.g."
Yes it is an analogue of folate, and it works by tying up the molecules that folate binds with.
It is an antifolate drug. It is used to induce abortions, because it destroys life processes, by interfering with folate and the myriad of fundamentally essential functions folate is involved in.
It is a DEATH drug. In chemotherapy, it kills cancer cells by interfering with RNA & DNA synthesis; in RA it interferes with a natural process (inflammation) that is trying to fix some other problem, which nobody really wants to figure out.

"Who ever you are quoting above "
He is quoting Dr Burt Berkson, who is the original US investigator and expert on alpha lipoic acid as used in liver treatment for deadly poisons like amanita poisoning, and such as hep C, and assorted major disasters of the liver (and pancreas). Given the alleged state of your liver from the science fair poster you put up, maybe you ought to study up on this. Oh yeah, has a good deal to do with pancreatic/insulin/blood sugar issues too.
Berkson on ALA: Jour Orthomol. Med Vol.13, No1, 1998
General info & HVC: http://www.janis7hepc.com/Nutrition/Ber ... 0Study.htm
And pancreatic cancer: http://ict.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/1/83

I see nothing in the quote that gives you any justification for the comment "does not know about dosage."

"In low dosages is one of the "safer" drugs for RA patients they can take."
I guess that proves that the field of safe and useful treatments "they" have for RA is extremely poor. But quite profitable.

"It is safer to let your child play on the interstate than in the tiger's den. And both beat hell out of a Doctor's office".

FRM

[majkinetor]

Disclaimer: For forum readers who now consider me a hypocrite for citing studies, I have two things to say. First, I have met Dr. Pincus, and he is interested in the truth. Second, I noted posting these links that many are missing even the abstract in pubmed!!

[ofonorow]

gofanu: I listened to Dr. Pincus lecture at Northwestern last month, and he gave me copies of the Journal of Rhuematology that he edited with his articles. I also had a chance to speak with him afterwards for about a half hour, for which I am grateful! There is probably no doctor/professor on the planet who knows more about low-dose methotrexate than he does. (Low dose, once per week). And he made the claim during the lecture that not only is low dose prednizone one of the safest drugs that can be prescribed, but the same for low-dose methotrexate. And he knows this is not what doctors are taught, or what they believe.

The knowledge is in the links, but for some number of years, he treated RA with only prednizone. But could not get the dosages of prednizone as low as when he added methotrexate (which he points out is widely used throughout the world for RA) After low-dose methotrexate was added, RA results improved, and his patients were able to lower their prednizone dosages to 3, 2 and sometimes 1 mg daily.

He maintained complete records of symptomology over 25 years, perhaps in part (I speculate) to help him draw the scientific conclusion that low-dose prednizone was safe, and the first DMARD - methotrexate - added, is even a safer regimen. (Now consider that these are old, unprofitable drugs, leading to their debunking as there are now probably over 100 NEW DMARDS (anti-RA drugs) that do who knows what, to whom, when.)

You don't have to believe me, I am just reporting what I learned first hand from a New York professor with over 400 publications to his credit. He is a scientist/doctor who is interested in the truth, and what works for bettering the lives of his patients. He is now one of my heroes.

[VanCanada]

Alpha Lipoic Acid is not patentable, and low dose Naltrexone (used for the pancreatic cancer treatments) has been off patent (generic) since 1984, 2 years after Ian Zagon discovered its potential for cancer treatment.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2OWH7ZORQP71H/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm

[jaamzg]

Hi Owen,

First, sorry to hear about all the difficulties you've been having with your health. I kinda wander into and out of the forum on long intervals and I didn't know you had been going through such trials. It makes me appreciate your help all the more since you responded to my e-mails back in December while you were going through some of the worse of this and I wasn't even aware of your situation.

I've read through all the posts (and there were a lot of them!) and someone had asked about your vitamin B intake, but I don't think you responded. The newer posts are talking about some B vitamins now, folate (and analogs) and B12 patches. I finally made the presentation to the medical professionals we had originally talked about this past wed. and one of the things I tried to share with them was what gets discussed here in terms of vitamin c, that is, sometimes acute diseases are really just subclinical nutritional deficiencies. I gave the example of easy bruising as subclinical scurvy and schizophrenia being a B3, B6, Zinc deficiencies as per Hoffer.

So, in reading through your posts, I wanted to throw out as a possibility some B deficiencies such as B3 and B1 especially. B1 Thiamine causes berri berri with dry and wet symptoms which include loss of sensation, memory loss, confusion, fatigue, pleural effusion, shortness of breath, etc. B3 (pellagra) deficiency includes inflamed mucus membranes and diarrhea as symptoms and in the 3gm to 6gm range has been used to treat arthritis. As Levy says, all disease states are oxidizers and require lots of electrons for quenching.

Since the B vitamins are water soluble, perhaps in your stressed state they were depleted and led to some of your initial problems, which were compounded over the several months, and have yet to be fully replenished? After having the dental toxicities removed, you were able to get over the main cause of the illness (which you have had for a long time), but remain B deficient, thereby still presenting with what seems to be adrenal insufficiency. However, if what was happening was that the steroid were just masking the symptoms of the B deficiency, it may be why you are now thinking your adrenal glads have restarted when in fact you may just be slowly rebuilding your B stores reducing your deficiency symptoms.

Just wanted to throw that idea out there as another possible path for investigation. Perhaps a solid B-100 preparation 3 or 4 times a day along with an additional 3gms to 6gms of niacin might be beneficial?

[ofonorow]

Thank you jaamsg. I very much appreciate your taking the time to read of my trials and tribulatioons and submitting your thoughts. (And to think when this first started, I credited Lypo-C with an almost magical cure.. Little did I know..)

I have followed Linus Pauling's advice since 1986, and take at least one Super-B complex daily. For some time, I have been taking the Life Extension Super-B, along with extra Niacin and vitamin B1. I understand that I may have a special need for one or more B vitamins, that is not being addressed. (My doc just informed of research that pantothetic acid (B5) is known to help adrenal function.) However, a B12 deficiency seemed perhaps likely, because a relative had pernicious anemia and the B12 patch pulled my younger brother out of depression in about 4 hours! (The patch(es) have had little effect, as far as I can tell, but something has reduced my cortisol (prednisolone/hydrocortisone)? So, to add to that speculation, my new doc recommended high dose taurine (to help absorb all the nutrients I take, else they are mostly pissed out (without taurine) he claims, and P-5-P (which I take, but haven't studied.) Something has increased by cortisol output by 50%....

But in my case, the little known monumental book by William Mck Jefferies, Safe Uses of Cortisol, 3rd Edition, (2004) EXPLAINS EVERYTHING I WENT THROUGH. The only thing I am not sure of is whether my adrenal tissue has atrophied (died) because according to Jeffereies about 90% has to die before cortisol production is impaired enough to cause the symptoms I had, or whether my production of the ACTH hormone (from the pituitary) was reduced - perhaps in the manner Jefferies describes, some bug impairing the production of ACTH in the pituitary.

The end result is the same - low cortisol.

The ultimate fix is the same - replacement cortisol. (i.e. hydrocortisone, prednizone or methyl prednisolone).

All should go to the library and take the time to read this book, study the cases, and become among the enlightened!

[jaamzg]

Owen,

In Hoffer's book on children's behavioral disorders (http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Childrens-Attention-Behavior-Disorders/dp/1897025106/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339181951&sr=8-1) he talked about people who may have been at one time vitamin deficient and then because of extreme stress, became vitamin dependent. He talked about POW's from WWII who required large amounts of Niacin due to the extreme stress they suffered. Perhaps you went through a similar physiological stress with your long term infections and acute attacks?

What I found interesting about your situation is that the adrenal glads started working again, which you said is not supposed to happen. Now, I have no knowledge about adrenal glands or anything of the such, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially, if 90% of the gland had to be gone for you to experience those symptoms.

I totally understand the symptoms matching up exactly with that of adrenal insufficiency, but what if we viewed this from the same perspective as we would the unified theory of heart disease whereby the adrenal insufficiency is itself a symptom and not the main underlying problem. So, in heart disease, while we can say that there are plaque deposits, angina, fatigue, etc, we can say "this matches exactly the symptoms of heart disease". However, the real problem is acute scurvy of the aorta with lp(a) binding to the site, or a nutritional deficiency. So, while the situation you are dealing with is low cortisol, perhaps the real underlying issue is a B deficiency. This would seem to fit well, especially considering your family history of your mother having suffered from RA and your brother getting better with the b12 patch. You may have a genetic predisposition requiring greater intakes of B, which Hoffer also noted among his patients ran in family.

Here is a link to some of Kaufman's work with Niacin and joint dysfunction
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman10.html

Again, I don't really have any handle on the whole adrenal gland issue, but if the underlying issue may be a low B level, then upping the B dosage focusing especially on B3, the way you would with Vit C when you are ill, may be helpful. They're water soluble, don't have any real side effects (except maybe B6 in multi gram doses), and are cheap. If you do require higher quantities of B, by only taking on Super-B daily, it may be like taking just a 500mg C tab daily to deal with a Flu. Just throwing out ideas.

Wish you the best.

[Jacquie]

Wise words about B vitamins.

For more about B vitamin dependencies, read Why I Left Orthodox Medicine by Lonsdale, M.D.

B vitamin dependencies can be quite extreme, and aren't as uncommon as most people would think. It's well worth it to examine this possibility.

[ofonorow]

Again, thank you both. I take an LEF super-B Complex, plus a Niacin capsule and a B1 pill.

didn't notice any reaction to the B12 patch, after wearing 2 patches.

And today (off cortisol for 24 hours) I know my production is still impaired.

What I found interesting about your situation is that the adrenal glads started working again, which you said is not supposed to happen. Now, I have no knowledge about adrenal glands or anything of the such, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially, if 90% of the gland had to be gone for you to experience those symptoms.

One explanation for adrenal fatigue is the destruction of adrenal tissue, and Jefferies mentions that 90% has to be destroyed before symptoms usually begin. But that isn't the ONLY explanation.

The hormone that controls cortisol levels in the body minute by minute, even second by second, is pituitary Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), which itself is released under influence of hypothalamic Corticotropin-Releasing Hormone (CRH).

As Jefferies research found, influenza attacks the pituitary, effectively turning of ACTH. (I have a feeling
that something like this happened during all the infections.)

However, a lack of or inability to produce CRH can also lead to low cortisol.

Finally, there are "receptor" issues where these hormones lose their ability to control cortisol.

I am going to find out what my ACTH levels are today. Not sure what I'll learn, unless they are way low.

[majkinetor]

As Jefferies research found, influenza attacks the pituitary, effectively turning of ACTH. (I have a feeling
that something like this happened during all the infections.)

However, a lack of or inability to produce CRH can also lead to low cortisol.

Finally, there are "receptor" issues where these hormones lose their ability to control cortisol.

- Influenza destroying pituitary with 18g/day vitamin C for decade ? Mhmm...
- Since ACTH is created by orders of CRH, testing ACTH determines the validity of both hypothesis. CRH is also anorectic hormon, lack of which may be involved in wieght gain.
- Corticosteroid resistance ? That would be more visible via other sympthoms I guess. Since cortisol regulates hypoglicemia apart from glucagon, I guess sugar metter after exercise or ketogenic diet could be used as a test.
- Pituitary lessions would probably influence CoQ10 levels, might be good to check them out or supplement megadoses (>300mg or something...). See "Coenzyme Q10 evaluation in pituitary-adrenal axis disease" in which they say that hipoadrenalism is related to low CoQ10 levels.
- Another possible reason is lack of cholesterol. Check this out. Since cholesterol synthesis was a problem bellow, ACTH was very high - http://goo.gl/06PLl
- Finally, maybe vitamin C megadose is responsible, Vit C effects on adrenal gland are not yet well understood. But here is one interesting study "Bimodal Effects of Megadose Vitamin C on Adrenal Steroid Production in Man", using 4g/day vit C dose:

Much evidence supports the concept that vitamin C has an inhibitory effect on steroid production in vitro in experimental animals (for reviews, see refs. 1 and 2). However, except for one study on the role of vitamin C in adrenal steroids in children,' the role of this vitamin in adrenal steroid production in humans is lacking. Therefore, the purposes of the present study were to investigate whether consumption of megadose vitamin C for a short period affects the adrenal glucocorticoid and androgen levels of adult men and to locate the possible site(s) of blockage of the steroidogenesis pathway.

[ofonorow]

And? What were the results of the study?

- Influenza destroying pituitary with 18g/day vitamin C for decade ? Mhmm...

No one even suggested "destroy" as most flu victims survive. What is suggested is that the influenza virus has a measurable
effect on the production of ACTH during the beginning stages of the flu. ACTH declined, when by all rights, it should have increased
to meet the stress!

This was first reported by Jefferies in the 70s, but the editors didn't feel he had enough evidence, and he wasn't published

Another team performed the same study, which was published decades later, so the effect has been measured/published

And yes, this is a possible mechanism wher by large doses of vitamin C work to shorten the duration and severity of the flu may be
related.

- Since ACTH is created by orders of CRH, testing ACTH determines the validity of both hypothesis. CRH is also anorectic hormon, lack of which may be involved in wieght gain.
- Corticosteroid resistance ? That would be more visible via other sympthoms I guess. Since cortisol regulates hypoglicemia apart from glucagon, I guess sugar metter after exercise or ketogenic diet could be used as a test.

I am sorry, I have no idea what this means.

- Pituitary lessions would probably influence CoQ10 levels, might be good to check them out or supplement megadoses (>300mg or something...). See "Coenzyme Q10 evaluation in pituitary-adrenal axis disease" in which they say that hipoadrenalism is related to low CoQ10 levels.

The first sentence does not follow from the rest of what you said. Low CoQ10 levels can effect many things, because CoQ10 is
required in the mitochondria of every cell for energy (to cleave ATP) but why the pituitary would have control over CoQ10 levels?
This assumes some knowledge that you have, that I do not.)

- Another possible reason is lack of cholesterol. Check this out. Since cholesterol synthesis was a problem bellow, ACTH was very high - http://goo.gl/06PLl
- Finally, maybe vitamin C megadose is responsible, Vit C effects on adrenal gland are not yet well understood. But here is one interesting study "Bimodal Effects of Megadose Vitamin C on Adrenal Steroid Production in Man", using 4g/day vit C dose:

Are you seriously suggesting that high vitamin C,on the order of what most animals make 24/7, would somehow turn off cortisol or
weaken the adernals?

My cholesterol is low (total 160 mg/dl) and I have been eating an egg every morning for as long as I can remember....

[majkinetor]

And? What were the results of the study?

Although ingestion of vitamin C did not alter the normal pattern of diurnal variation of plasma cortisol levels, it significantly lowered mean plasma cortisol levels at O400, 0800, 1600, and 2000 hours (p < 0.05). Moreover, a significant decrease in the overall 24-hour plasma cortisol curve during vitamin C ingestion compared to the control period was observed (p < 0.02).

Our studies indicate that megadose vitamin C decreases the sensitivity but not the capacity of adrenal gland to respond to ACTH. The present findings are in support of our earlier work in vitro, in that vitamin C in beef adrenal inhibited 21-hydroxylase' and shifted the ACTH dose-response curve of corticosterone in rat adrenal to the right. It is tempting to postulate that with vitamin C ingestion there may be a partial blockage of 2 1 -hydroxylase so that more substrate becomes available for the androgenic pathway. This blockage is incomplete since a higher ACTH dose reverses the abnormal cortisol response to the low dose.

That was short study (10days) so results are probably not similar to chronic megadose. But nevertheless, it remains in the realm of possibilities. The obvious difference between animals and human megadosers are, again, similar to diabetics with insulin infusion and normal humans - you can't dose insulin like pancreas and you can't dose C as as good as liver. I am not saying this is happening to you, but it would be good to keep an open mind. I personally think this is normal - more C means less stress in the body so there is less need for cortisol and friends. However, since vitamin C is strong modulator of adrenal function (some even claim its adrenal paracrine agent) I am just saying you should take this into account, particularly when you go to do some tests (like ACTH).

All other stuff mean that if you have some problem on HPA axis there are many things you could consider to test or as indirect clue.

[ofonorow]

Okay, more vitamin C - less ACTH. Sounds good to me. Obviously not a problem since 1986, but only after major pancreatic surgery in 2010 and two months after half-brother/business partner died last year. (exactly as Jefferies predicts, by the way - two months after a major stress.) And what I take is not abnormal. Humans are abnormal. Most animals adjusted for body weight produce as much as I take - and their is "injected" by the liver (or kidney) into the blood stream!