Lysine / Proline dosage

[gmdodaro]

I remember reading--I think it was somewhere on this site--that taking more than 2000 mg of Lysine or more than 500 mg proline isn't recommended. But I don't remember why or what the adverse effects might be. Does anybody have information about this? This is, of course, along with vitamin C supplementation.

[ofonorow]

I hope the old post is still here by johnwen - and if memory serves, the actual maximum recommended dosage of lysine is around 14,000 mg (14 grams). I am not sure if we ever put a maximum on proline, and I do know that many alt. docs used to recommend 2000 mg (2 g) daily. Heart Technology has been successful providing 800 mg (in 2 servings) daily of proline.

From our experience, rarely is more than 6000 mg of lysine required, and I report on my uncles case where his 50% blockage of his carotid artery cleared in 30 days (verified by surgery) on 2500 mg of lysine (and 2500 mg of vitamin C)

[gmdodaro]

Thanks, Owen. I'm taking roughly 5 grams lysine per day and 2 grams proline. My vitamin K dosage, as noted in my other recent post, is high, about 50 mg per day. The author of this story-- http://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=My_Story --and I both have other factors that have complicated treatment of heart disease, hepatitis C in my case, and an adverse reaction to a vaccination in his.

[ofonorow]

Yes 50 mg of vitamin K is high! (The president of Tower was able to reduce his calcium on perhaps 300 MICROGRAMS of vitamin K for a year. What is that, 0.3 mg?) How long have you been taking that much vitamin K? And can you put that in perspective with you lab tests?

[gmdodaro]

I have been taking 50 mg vitamin K for about six months. Schallenberger and others recommend dosages in mg instead of micrograms. What I've read on this forum and in other sources seems to indicate vitamin K as the main agent against calcification of arteries. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D5T ... TF8&btkr=1
I've read research, mostly animal based, that shows that it works. But, I've not seen any reduction, rather increase, but a month ago I had a root canal tooth removed. The root canal was done about eight years ago and my coronary calcium has been rapidly increasing for at least five years. I'm going to get some new blood work done in a week or two. If Lp(a), LP-PLA2, homocystein etc come down, I'll take that as progress for now. In another six months I'll get another EBT coronary calcium score. It has been increasing 100 points per year since at 2011. I get the vitamin K that I take here: http://www.k-vitamins.com/

[ofonorow]

Any more root canals in your mouth? (Dr. Levy would say that source of toxicity is too much for almost any level of vitamin C.)

If not, your next tests will indeed be very interesting.

And six months on vitamin K is also interesting. We think we know it can work to lower calcium in about a year, but have no data on shorter time frames.

[gmdodaro]

I had only one root canal about eight years ago, about three years before my heart disease was diagnosed. Dr. Levy has been kind enough to correspond with me about his book on periodontal issues, as related to heart disease. His documentation got me to stop procrastinating and have my root canal tooth removed. I hope my results are similar to his after having a root canal tooth removed. I do feel better. Swelling in my ankles is much diminished. Now that a month has passed, I'm getting a list together of blood-work tests to request from my doctor. You'll hear about the results. This forum has been very helpful over many months of effort and a couple of panic episodes. If my complicated medical history resolves favorably, it will help others.

[Montmorency]

I now know (thanks to this forum) the value of lysine. However, what is the reason for proline? Does it do the same job as lysine?

Also, what would be a "normal" or recommended dose of K2? My "only" symptom is high blood pressure, which probably has several causes, but at my age (nearly 66), I'd be surprised if I didn't have some degree of calcification. My dietary calcium intake has always been pretty high. (Haven't had a calcium test though. Rather than spend money on a test (assuming it's even available here in the UK), I'd rather assume I have calcification and spend the money on vitamin C, lysine, proline, K2 and E...

Guess I'll know when it's working when I get more of a spring in my step and my blood pressure consistently stays down.


Edit: Is there any possibility that additional magnesium, even without doing anything else, could have an effect on de-calcifying soft tissue?

Edit2: Suppose I should add that I'm not taking any prescriptions drugs and certainly not statins (as if! ).

[gmdodaro]

Montmorency,
If you can find a lab that does Electron Beam Tomography, that test will measure coronary calcium. I had no symptoms when I was first tested and found that calcification was starting. It gave me a baseline to compare over the next several years and determine that I had to start working on this, or I'd pretty soon be a candidate for a bypass operation.

[Montmorency]

Montmorency,
If you can find a lab that does Electron Beam Tomography, that test will measure coronary calcium. I had no symptoms when I was first tested and found that calcification was starting. It gave me a baseline to compare over the next several years and determine that I had to start working on this, or I'd pretty soon be a candidate for a bypass operation.

Thanks @gmdodaro.

By the way, minor question really: Is it safe to take proline (+ vitamin C) without lysine?


I only ask because my shipment of lysine is delayed, but I got my proline. I did start taking it, but then wondered if that was a good idea without lysine.

(I've not had any cardiovascular or ischemic events (that I know of) - blood pressure is the only real worry at the moment).

I'll definitely take lysine when it arrives, but wonder if I should hold off on the proline until then.
I'm taking as much l-ascorbic acid as I can get down (avoiding the time I take iodine, which I mentioned in another thread), plus K2 (mk-4 and mk-7).
(It probably varies between 10g and 20g of VC).

Thanks.

[gmdodaro]

Proline is an amino acid found in many foods: https://blissreturned.wordpress.com/201 ... ing-aging/
I doubt that supplementing at the amounts recommended for Pauling therapy would be harmful with or without lisine.
Proline is active in the formation of collagen.

[Montmorency]

Proline is an amino acid found in many foods: https://blissreturned.wordpress.com/201 ... ing-aging/
I doubt that supplementing at the amounts recommended for Pauling therapy would be harmful with or without lisine.
Proline is active in the formation of collagen.

Great: thanks again @gmdodaro. I read the article. Very interesting. Must admit, I'd not consciously heard of proline before finding this website/forum.
However, I do take Great Lakes Gelatin (albeit not religiously), and I'd noticed that it had some lysine (about 4%), but thought it had no proline. However, I just checked the ingredients, and it actually has ~17% (kind of the "wrong" proportion for the Pauling/Rath Therapy, but as it's a natural source, I suppose it can't be that wrong - well, not wrong for cows, anyway. ).

I also consume meat (incl. organs), butter, eggs and some whole milk, so I presume I wouldn't be totally deficient in the aminos even without supplements.

[ofonorow]

Re: proline w/out lysine

Because no one is studying Pauling's ideas, all we can do is learn from people such as yourself, regarding the advisability of vitamin C and proline (w/out lysine). We wish you well and let us know.

As someone mentioned, if you eat meat and proteins, you will get some lysine (and lysine is essential, meaning you must get some to exist.) According to Pauling, we all need at least one gram lysine per day.

Apparently proline is non essential, meaning that our bodies can make proline. (One of my pet theories, or at least speculations, is that the reason heart disease may get more prevalent as we age, might be because our ability to make proline diminishes. And reduced proline may be part of the signaling process in the body that causes the liver to make (more) Lp(a).)

If we had an animal model, such as the guinea pig (which we already know, by the way, does not make its own vitamin C, suffers heart disease when vitamin C is insufficient, and vitamin C alone can reverse the heart disease. G.C Willis 1952) that we could also give lysine and proline to, it would be interesting to find out whether proline can take the place of lysine in the Pauling therapy.

One thing I do (think I) know - don't take high lysine/proline without high vitamin C.

e.g., you don't want to take large amounts of either lysine and proline without sufficient vitamin C (if Pauling's theory is correct) because that might dissolve the plaques (which are serving the purpose of making your arteries more stable in the absence of vitamin C.) Without the new collagen, the arteries might rupture without their "plaster casts."

[bzmazu]

If I take 2000gr C is 500mg lysine/proline adequate or would 1000mg be better.... Actually the plan is to take 2000g C twice a day and I'm unsure of the lysine/proline dosage.

[pamojja]

If I take 2000gr C is 500mg lysine/proline adequate or would 1000mg be better.... Actually the plan is to take 2000g C twice a day and I'm unsure of the lysine/proline dosage.

Depends on so many things. For example Owen recommends at least 3g of ascorbic acid and 3g of lysine per day as a preventive in his book. At least 6g AA and 6g lysine as therapeutics.

My experience with PAD and starting Linus Pauling's therapy 9 years ago confirms exactly that. By gradually increasing both doses only once exceeding the above therapeutic dosages of 6 g of each, did my PAD symptoms improve (intermittent claudication).

However, with other preconditions and toxicities (ie. root-canals, mercury fillings, occupational exposures) the need for ascorbic acid can rise exponentially.

Proline in my experience isn't as much needed, about 2g per day is plenty. (Personally get about 3.1 of proline and 3.3 lysine from diet alone).