On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

[ChuckArbogast]

It is my understanding that Pauling Therapy should help get Cholesterol down to normal levels. However, my latest lab work shows that I am not down to normal levels. My total Cholesterol is 254 mg/dL, my calculated LDL is 184 mg/dL. I haven't been taking any statins but have been taking Pauling Therapy for a few years. Although I don't agree with the levels my cardiologist wants my LDL to be (<70 mg/dL), I do think that my current level may be too high, especially since I do have CVD. He wants me to go on a statin but I don't know what to do.

Here is the supplements that I currently take and have taken for over a year now:
Upon Waking (4:30 am)
- Vitamin C: 8 g (PureBulk)
- Lysine: 5.6 g (PureBulk)
- Proline: 1.5 g (NOW)
- Nattokinase: 2,000 FU (Doctor's Best)
- Serrapeptase: 240,000 SPU (Doctor's Best)

Around 6 am
- Arginine: 3 g (PureBulk)
- Citrulline: 3 g (PureBulk)
- Magnesium: 500 mg (PureBulk), not everyday

First Meal (11 am to Noon)
- B Complex (Stop Aging Now)
- Vitamin D3: 5000 IU (Doctor's Best)
- Vitamin K2: 180 mcg as K2 (Doctor's Best)
- Ubiquinol: 100 mg (Jarrow)
- Vitamin A: 40,000 IU as palmitate (Source Naturals)
- Selenium: 200 mcg (NOW)
- Astaxanthin: 12 mg (Jarrow)
- Vitamin E: 800 IU (AC Grace Unique E)

About 1 hour before bed and 2 hours after last meal
- Vitamin C: 8 g (PureBulk)

NOTE: I can generally take 8 g of Vitamin C without having loose bowel movements but if I go to 10 g of Vitamin C, I almost always have loose bowel movements.

I thought I was doing everything right and from what I have read here, that I should be seeing better levels on my Cholesterol if taking Pauling Therapy. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for any and all help,
Chuck

[pamojja]

What is your lipid history? Just one measurement doesn't has to mean much at all. Could be a healing fatty liver releasing. Could be any temporary infection increasing cholesterol production. Or anything else, for the most part beneficial. Also you're not too far off from values found in epidemiological studies, where 170-250 TC, and 110-150 mg/dl LDL associated with lowest all-cause mortality.

I would be much more worried about high triglycerides values (anything above 60 mg/dl - which I suffer from), which usually comes from impaired glucose metabolism and which definitely damages the endothelium. Only after which all the Ldl and Lp(a) matters for its rescue. But is accumulating thereby..

If you want to appease your cardiologist a bit, you could try adding in immediate release niacin, which did improve my lipids (HDL, LDL and trigs) by about 40% in average. But as you already mentioned, they never seem satisfied as long as your not on a statin.

You also could increase the vitamin C, by taking further 8 g doses 20 minutes before each of your meals, if you tolerate.

Also this post about familial hypercholesterolemia has some interesting links to read.. viewtopic.php?p=53501#p53501

[ChuckArbogast]

What is your lipid history? Just one measurement doesn't has to mean much at all. Could be a healing fatty liver releasing. Could be any temporary infection increasing cholesterol production. Or anything else, for the most part beneficial. Also you're not too far off from values found in epidemiological studies, where 170-250 TC, and 110-150 mg/dl LDL associated with lowest all-cause mortality.

I would be much more worried about high triglycerides values (anything above 60 mg/dl - which I suffer from), which usually comes from impaired glucose metabolism and which definitely damages the endothelium. Only after which all the Ldl and Lp(a) matters for its rescue. But is accumulating thereby..

If you want to appease your cardiologist a bit, you could try adding in immediate release niacin, which did improve my lipids (HDL, LDL and trigs) by about 40% in average. But as you already mentioned, they never seem satisfied as long as your not on a statin.

You also could increase the vitamin C, by taking further 8 g doses 20 minutes before each of your meals, if you tolerate.

Also this post about familial hypercholesterolemia has some interesting links to read.. viewtopic.php?p=53501#p53501

pamojja,
Thanks for the reply. My last 3 readings were without any statins, so they would probably be the only results that would be helpful.
12/30/2016: Tot. Chol:238 mg/dL, HDL: 45 mg/dL, Calc. LDL: 155 mg/dL, Triglycerides: 190 mg/dL
11/22/2017: Tot. Chol:230 mg/dL, HDL: 45 mg/dL, Calc. LDL: 163 mg/dL, Triglycerides: 111 mg/dL
11/12/2018: Tot. Chol:254 mg/dL, HDL: 43 mg/dL, Calc. LDL: 184 mg/dL, Triglycerides: 134 mg/dL

I'm surprised that you say "anything above 60 mg/dl" is high for triglycerides. I say this since all the lab results I have seen say anything below 150 mg/dL is ok and their "normal range" is 30 - 150 mg/dL. Why do you say above 60 mg/dL is too high? How can I lower it? It seems like you are saying if I can lower it to below 60 mg/dL, that maybe my other cholesterol numbers with decrease. Is that what you are saying?

I have used some immediate release niacin before but wasn't consistent due to the flushing I had with it. I know that is expected however, I just never maintained using it. I guess I can try that again. What is your suggested dosing for it (amount and frequency)?

If I would increase the number of times per day I take Vitamin C, I would most likely have to go with pills for my doses while at work. I could do that but was hoping my 2 times per day would be good enough.

Again, thanks for your input and I look forward to your reply!

[pamojja]

I'm surprised that you say "anything above 60 mg/dl" is high for triglycerides. I say this since all the lab results I have seen say anything below 150 mg/dL is ok and their "normal range" is 30 - 150 mg/dL. Why do you say above 60 mg/dL is too high? How can I lower it? It seems like you are saying if I can lower it to below 60 mg/dL, that maybe my other cholesterol numbers with decrease. Is that what you are saying?

High LDL is made to appear the most dangerous risk-factor for CVD because there is this block-buster class of drugs, statins. It works for lowering LDL. However, out of 83 taking statins for 5 years (nothing known for longer periods) only 1 experience a benefit in respect to decreased mortality. That means for 1 to benefit, 83 have to take this class of drugs without experiencing any benefits (beside the questionable of reducing LDL) for 5 years. Therefore high LDL can't be at fault at all.

What usually starts accumulation of plaque is damage to the endothelium (a 1 cell thick protective layer at the insight of our arteries). High LDL alone can't accomplish that. However, any infection (bacterial, viral), any mechanical stress, inflammation or for example high blood glucose levels over time to definitely do damage to the endothelium. Only then comes LDL with Lp(a) and other substances in an attempt to heal the disrupted protective layer. And only then plaque accumulates.

Now even LDL can be differentiated between large fluffy and small dense types. Which usually isn't even tested for, and only the later type the dangerous one. Meaning that all your high LDL measured could actually be of the large fluffy type and harmless. There is, however, that clinical observation that triglycerides close to 150 mg/dl correlate to most your LDL being of the dangerous kind, and with a triglycerides close to 50 mg/dl most of your LDL being of the harmless kind. That's one reason why keeping triglycerides close to 60 would be highly advisable. To change the type of LDL, no matter how much, into less harmless ones.

High triglycerides usually also means, as already mentioned, that your glucose metabolism is off. And that leads to the real initial cause for plaque to grow, the damage to the endothelium.

Therefore high triglycerides usually can be brought down by having good control over your blood glucose levels, especially over those high peaks after meals. By testing in the beginning regularly with one of those cheap blood glucose meters, and singling out those foods, which cause the highest blood glucose spikes. And by eliminating or reducing those offending foods.

High dose fish oil, niacin too, can also bring triglycerides somewhat down. There are no other drugs to bring it down.

I have used some immediate release niacin before but wasn't consistent due to the flushing I had with it. I know that is expected however, I just never maintained using it. I guess I can try that again. What is your suggested dosing for it (amount and frequency)?

If I would increase the number of times per day I take Vitamin C, I would most likely have to go with pills for my doses while at work. I could do that but was hoping my 2 times per day would be good enough.

To make the flush bearable start with a very low dose, like 100 or 125mg, for some days, then increase by 25-50mg baby-steps. Wait some days till your accustomed to the flush again at that higher daily dose, then increase again. Proceed till you're at a level you're getting results. Personally have taken 6 g/d every second day (to give respite to my liver) for many years, and actually miss the warmth and tingling of the flush. One gets used to and the flush completely ceases.

Don't take vitamin C pills in many grams, you ultimately would get too much binder and fillers which are less harmless then vitamin C. I usually take pure ascorbic acid powder, 1 1/2 teaspoons (about 8 grams) and mix it in a glass of water. I don't see any problem in taking a glass of water (with vitamin c stirred in) even at work.

[Frodo]

[ChuckArbogast]

There is, however, that clinical observation that triglycerides close to 150 mg/dl correlate to most your LDL being of the dangerous kind, and with a triglycerides close to 50 mg/dl most of your LDL being of the harmless kind. That's one reason why keeping triglycerides close to 60 would be highly advisable. To change the type of LDL, no matter how much, into less harmless ones.

High triglycerides usually also means, as already mentioned, that your glucose metabolism is off. And that leads to the real initial cause for plaque to grow, the damage to the endothelium.

Therefore high triglycerides usually can be brought down by having good control over your blood glucose levels, especially over those high peaks after meals. By testing in the beginning regularly with one of those cheap blood glucose meters, and singling out those foods, which cause the highest blood glucose spikes. And by eliminating or reducing those offending foods.

High dose fish oil, niacin too, can also bring triglycerides somewhat down. There are no other drugs to bring it down.

pamojja,
Thanks for the additional information. It seems like based on what you are saying, the LDL I have could be the dangerous type since my triglycerides are close to 150 mg/dl. I'm not sure I understand why you suggest checking my blood glucose meters though. My A1c and glucose numbers have been within range when I have them tested. Is it because certain foods can cause high triglycerides and I can tell what they are for me if I see a large spike after meals? If so, how would I know what is a large spike and what is not? I have never used one of those blood glucose meters before. I'm just not sure how to go about doing what I think you are suggesting.
Thanks,
Chuck

[ChuckArbogast]

[Frodo]

[pamojja]

I'm not sure I understand why you suggest checking my blood glucose meters though. My A1c and glucose numbers have been within range when I have them tested. Is it because certain foods can cause high triglycerides and I can tell what they are for me if I see a large spike after meals? If so, how would I know what is a large spike and what is not? I have never used one of those blood glucose meters before. I'm just not sure how to go about doing what I think you are suggesting.
Thanks,
Chuck

HbA1c can be falsely lowered due to many things, one of them is high vitamin C intake. Fasting glucose can still be perfectly fine, while postprandial could already soar. The good doc William Davis on the old 'TrackYourPlaque' recommended to only eat food that cause absolutely no spikes. At least not higher than 100 mg/dl. However, that is almost impossible for most pre-diabetics, unless carbohydrates are indeed reduced to no more than 30-40 g/d. Which is very difficult. I would say aim at least below 140 mg/dl after every meal. The lower the better. Also the highest spike in blood glucose is usually 1 hour after the meal, but can vary a bid between individuals. One can find out by repeated testing around the 1 hour after a meal mark. Lower after meal spikes will always bring trigs down.

[ChuckArbogast]

[ChuckArbogast]

I'm not sure I understand why you suggest checking my blood glucose meters though. My A1c and glucose numbers have been within range when I have them tested. Is it because certain foods can cause high triglycerides and I can tell what they are for me if I see a large spike after meals? If so, how would I know what is a large spike and what is not? I have never used one of those blood glucose meters before. I'm just not sure how to go about doing what I think you are suggesting.
Thanks,
Chuck

HbA1c can be falsely lowered due to many things, one of them is high vitamin C intake. Fasting glucose can still be perfectly fine, while postprandial could already soar. The good doc William Davis on the old 'TrackYourPlaque' recommended to only eat food that cause absolutely no spikes. At least not higher than 100 mg/dl. However, that is almost impossible for most pre-diabetics, unless carbohydrates are indeed reduced to no more than 30-40 g/d. Which is very difficult. I would say aim at least below 140 mg/dl after every meal. The lower the better. Also the highest spike in blood glucose is usually 1 hour after the meal, but can vary a bid between individuals. One can find out by repeated testing around the 1 hour after a meal mark. Lower after meal spikes will always bring trigs down.

pamojja,
Thanks for the info. So, it seems like it really comes down to what a person eats. So only eat food that doesn't raise it too much. What device do you suggest to measure this with? I really have no clue as to what or how to do this. I guess I have some learning to do.

Thanks,
Chuck

[pamojja]

[confused1]

Pamojja, do you have any experience with Gymnema sylvestre?

Chuck, regular flush niacin has helped to lower my cholesterol. Just me, but I would give it an honest trial before something dangerous like statins. I flushed horribly in the beginning, but with regular use this diminishes. I also take fish oils, and in six months my total cholesterol dropped 40 points, hdl climbed 6 points, and triglycerides fell 30 points. I take 2000 mg. Niacin/day. I get the bulk powder and just mix it in liquids, rather than trying to swallow so many pills. You can get two pounds for around $25, which I expect to last my family roughly a year.

[pamojja]

Pamojja, do you have any experience with Gymnema sylvestre?

I take gymnema sylvestre and many other herbals supposedly bringing down blood glucose. But it's benefits for me are negligible, nothing works as straight-forward as diet to avoid blood-glucose spikes.

[ChuckArbogast]