Animals don't make the Vit C "complex" in their livers?

[marcel]

[ofonorow]

Great question. But first,

I wanted to post this in "Ascorbic Acid versus Vitamin C Complex" but the "new topic" and "reply" links seem to be missing in that topic.

The first 4 topics are "frozen" to preserve them, they are conversations, but you should be able to create a "New Topic" like this one? At least I can... Hmmm, anyone else have a problem creating a new topic, or replying to any after the first 4?

To the specific issue, whether anyone has "looked" for bioflavonoids in the blood stream. First, I am sure there would be flavonoids in the blood of people who eat fruit and vegetables, at least the bioflavanoids which don't break down entirely during digestion. The question is whether a) these substances are required for vitamin C to be activated or do its work in the blood/cells, and b) whether or own body manufactures these substances as most other animals do. I have not read as much research as Pauling, but I have read almost all the vitamin C books which summarize the research, and I have seen nothing to indicate that the body produces any of the flavonoids generally found only in plants.

I am aware of early work where flavonoids were tested with and without vitamin C and the incidence of colds was measured

The results for the flavonoid only and placebo groups were identical with respect to colds, no effect.

The vitamin C and the vitamin C plus flavonoid groups offered virtually identical protection against colds. The conclusion was that with respect to the common cold, supplementing bioflavonoids provide no extra benefit. This citation can be found in Pauling's book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER.

[Steve Brown]

I advocate eating a diet abundant in plant foods containing high amounts of antioxidants such as bioflavonoids, polyphenols, anthocyanins, carotenoids, tocopherols, and alpha lipoic acid. Some of these substances have ORAC (Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity) values much higher than vitamin C. As such, they can make more non-oxidized vitamin C available in the body for it's unique and vital functions as builder of collagen, immune system activator, and cofactor of enzyme and neurotransmitter complexes.

[marcel]

Ofonorow,

Thanks for your reply. You seem to be suggesting that you don't know the answer. I am not asking whether flavonoids are made by the human body. I understand that humans are supposed to be one of the few creatures that don't manufacture Vitamin C in their bodies, thus need to eat it.

I am asking whether any study has sought to find out if ANIMALS that DO manufacture ascorbic acid in their livers or kidneys or other organs, also manufacture flavonoids and other elements of the alleged "complex". I'd be interested to know what is the basis for the claim that they do not. Maybe it's because the studies didn't look for the flavonoids, only for ascorbic acid.

After many years reading about the way medical science rigs and fakes studies for political and economic reasons, I tend to be skeptical of their findings.

I am completely open-minded about this issue. I just want to know the truth about whether Vitamin C is or is not a "complex," as it will affect my dietary practices.

[ofonorow]

I understand your skepticism and cynicism regarding modern medical "science." In my opinion, the further you go back in time, the better the science, especially before 1970. The more trustworthy the older studies are as science - truth seeking. (Of course there is good science today, but the problem is to tell which study is real and which is propaganda.)

I am not sure I understand your question You seem to be asking if perhaps a vitamin C complex is produced by mammals, and somehow this escaped scientific attention? Lets start by asking you about ANY research that describes the nature of the C-complex. I do not know of any, can you cite anything? The C complex is an idea without a specific scientific definition. (One can argue that because there isn't any research, perhaps such a Complex exists, but that is not a good argument given the long history of extensive scientific research into vitamin C.)

First, note that when hospital patients are in comas, they are kept alive indefinitely with nutritional products, such as the Ross Labs ENSURE. The products provide the necessary vitamin C as ascorbic acid. There is no attempt to substitute a "complex" because patients would quickly die of scurvy. (Ross labs tells their customers a story. Before it was known that Biotin was a vitamin, ENSURE did not contain biotin and patients died. The current formula keeps coma patients alive indefinitely without any C-complex.)

Biochemists have studied the nature of vitamin C, at least since the 1930s after it was isolated, and Svent Gyorgi originally believed, before much was known, that the bioflavanoids were important., These early quotes have been spread across the Internet. Quotes before hardly anything was known about vitamin C. There is no evidence he carried this belief forward as the science progressed. By the 1950s, not only was the sequence of chemical reactions known which converts the glucose molecule to ascorbic acid, but the enzymes necessary for this were also identified, including the missing GLUO enzyme - present in most animals but not humans and high level primates. Irwin Stone points out that the damaged gene in our DNA responsible for the GULO defect was found in 1957!

So as the Foundation points out in our paper, http://vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.htm the nature of vitamin C has been thoroughly studied, and there is no requirement for any other substances to avoid scurvy - the vitamin C deficiency disease. As Steve Brown points out, there may be health benefits from other substances, obstensibly part of the amorphous C-complex. All we are saying is that it is incorrect to label anything other than the ascorbate ion as vitamin C.

It is a grievous error when well meaning people say that ascorbic acid is not vitamin C, only the "shell" the preserves the vitamin C complex found in plants.

[Dolev]

Good post, Owen. "Grievous error" indeed, when a philosophy trumps 80 years of research in the feeble minds of idealistic people.

[Steve Brown]

There is no such thing as "vitamin C complex."

Vitamin C has been isolated and found to exist as ascorbic acid or as salts of ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is C6H8O6. An alkali metal, such as sodium or potassium, can replace one hydrogen atom. For example, sodium ascorbate is NaC6H7O6. An alkali earth metal, such as calcium or magnesium, can latch onto two ascorbate anions. For example, magnesium ascorbate is Mg(C6H7O6)2.

Vitamin C is not a simple antioxidant, as it is involved in both oxidation and reduction reactions, the synthesis of collagen, enzymes, and neurotransmitters. Plants make many antioxidant compounds which, as a group, may be referred to as "antioxidant complex," but many of those compounds do not resemble vitamin C in their molecular composition and structure. Therefore, it is incorrect to classify those compounds as belonging to a "vitamin C complex."

[marcel]

If Vitamin C is defined as that substance that prevents scurvy, then ascorbic acid is Vitamin C. However, that can also be regarded as definitional manipulation, something that medical science does constantly in order to give a false impression -- i.e., chemotherapy "cures" cancer because the doctors have made a self-serving definition of what a "cure" is. Or AIDS cases keep increasing because the US health authorities and the WHO keep changing the definition of what "AIDS" is to make it easier to classify a malady as "AIDS".

A person can stay alive breathing polluted air for a long time, but that doesn't mean that he should not bother to find out if there is better quality air available.

My question is, specifically, has any study sought to find out whether rutin, flavonoids, or the other alleged components of the complex, are manufactured in the livers of animals that are known to manufacture Ascorbic acid? If not, then your assertions that science has not found that animals manufacture flavonoids are meaningless, because science hasn't tried to find out. If animals do make flavonoids in their livers, that is strong evidence that Vit C may be a complex. If there are studies that searched for manufactured flavonoids in these animals and failed to find them, that is strong evidence that Vit C is only ascorbic acid. So where is the research on this?

Nobody here has given a definitive answer to this question yet.

As far as science's ability to perfectly duplicate natural substances goes, I'm not so sure about that. A while ago I went searching for natural beeswax. I couldn't find any, all I could find was synthetic beeswax, supposedly bio-identical to the real thing. But it appeared to have utterly different smell, texture and other properties to what real beeswax is supposed to have (I'm not sure I ever saw real beeswax, but this is what I gather based on internet research)

[Dolev]

Vitamin C is quite different from beeswax. Ascorbic acid is a molecule of clearly defined molecular structure, while beeswax is a ... well, not even a chemical.

In any case, I don't think that whether animals make the other substances along with vitamin C is a very important question. It's interesting, and if the additional substances are made and support vitamin C's actions it opens new possibilities. However, they would probably be expensive to manufacture in relationship to their utility. Ascorbic acid is simple and cheap, and the most important thing is that ascorbic acid in it's pure form has been used experimentally for 70 years with incredibly successful results in almost every medical conditon imaginable. Who needs to add bioflavinoids?

[w6nrw]

As they would say in the worlds of mathematics, physics
or engineering etc.:

Vitamin C = C6H8O6 by definition . . . . end of story

[Dolev]

More accurate: ascorbic acid = C6H8O6 by definition . . . . end of story

[ofonorow]

My question is, specifically, has any study sought to find out whether rutin, flavonoids, or the other alleged components of the complex, are manufactured in the livers of animals that are known to manufacture Ascorbic acid? If not, then your assertions that science has not found that animals manufacture flavonoids are meaningless, because science hasn't tried to find out. If animals do make flavonoids in their livers, that is strong evidence that Vit C may be a complex. If there are studies that searched for manufactured flavonoids in these animals and failed to find them, that is strong evidence that Vit C is only ascorbic acid. So where is the research on this?

Nobody here has given a definitive answer to this question yet.

The definitive answer is that we know at a high level that no other substance is required to cure scurvy. Again, we can keep coma patients alive indefinitely using vitamin C (ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate) without bioflavonoids.

The absence of vitamin C in the diet creates a dire condition, usually fatal in about 30 days. This syndrome has historically been called scurvy. Early experiments (e.g., James Lind) showed that substances in the food could prevent scurvy, and this substance was finally identified and isolated in the early 20th century - ascorbic acid. The name itself, a scorbic, stands for the absence of scurvy. There is no shennanigans in this work, just as isolating all the vitamins which caused deficiency diseases, e.g. the cause of beriberi (deficiency in vitamin B1), pellagra (deficiency in vitamin B3), etc. saved untold lives.

Identifying and isolating ascorbate was a triumph of science, and the Nobel prize was given in the 1930s. There was no effort to evade any issue, or avoid studying flavonoids. As I mentioned, early research found that they had no effect, one way or the other, on scurvy or colds.

But to answer your specific question, the responsibility to conduct and/or cite the experiments you seek rests with those who claim that ascorbic acid is not vitamin C, but that it is a complex. They should have the same questions as you, but to my knowledge, they have not looked into this question.

[Steve Brown]

What is known is that animals, including humans, make antioxidant compounds internally. Two that come to mind are glutathione and taurine. Both contain sulphur and are not vitamin C.

[Ralph Lotz]

Flavonoids are plant compounds by definition.
Animals are not plants.