Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

[ofonorow]

I copied this from a cancer post and would appreciate ideas/input.

I have found a blood glucose meter that reacts to vitamin C. Freestyle-lite (Abbot Labs).

The idea is to see whether I can measure and compare my own ascorbate blood levels after consuming different kinds of vitamin C in the morning (after fasting).

Here are my Fasting "glucose" readings (not sure why my starting blood sugar was so high.. Been 120s for awhile)

Ultra -C (9-CC -- level Cardio-C scoop) 6:56 a.m
6:55 a.m. 160 mg/dl (baseline)
7:10 a.m. 323 mg/dl (+163 @ 15 min)
7:25 a.m. 170 mg/dl (+10 @ 30 min)
7:40 a.m. 161 mg/dl (+1 @ 45 min)

I took approx 9 CCs (grams) at 6:56 a.m. (DSM ultrafine vitamin C powder is fluffy, so might be less than 9 grams. Probably should weigh instead of using volume)

After 15 minutes, my glucose reading doubled! (323 mg/dl).

Interestingly after 30-45 minutes, blood sugar returned to baseline! (Thank you Drs. Hickey/Roberts)

So this meter does give me at least a crude tool for measuring vitamin C levels in the blood. (This also means that clinics that do IV can use such a meter to follow Riordan's protocol. The Riordan clinic routinely measures vitamin C levels after an IV - if zero, more IV/C is given.)

I think my next few experiments may be with Lypo-C, first one packet, then multiple packets.

However, obviously the vitamin C I just took went through the stomach lining and not through the intestines (The effect w/ascorbic acid as reported by Hickey/Roberts in The Ridiculous Dietary Allowance lulu.com/ascorbate).

Lypo-C may not produce the same result, as its contents (sodium ascorbate) may have to be absorbed through the intestinal tract. I may only be able to compare (apples to apples) different forms of ascorbic acid, time will tell. Thoughts/ideas appreciated.

Only problem is waiting an hour after waking up for coffee..

[Johnwen]

Morning sugar spikes!!!
seriously, 160mg/dl is kind of high but not unusual for first awaking levels.
I think what you saw was the effects of the V-C blocking the serum glucose from entering the cells which is a good sign because it means your body is using the C over the sugar.
More torture! try getting a reading 1st thing like you did at 6.56 then drink about 6 to 8 oz of water wait about 10 min. then another reading then the V-C about 10min again then reading. Even slight dehydration in the am will cause spikes and high levels of sugar which can throw things off. If you mixed your C with water the liquid will throw the levels off also.
To get a good base line number on your sugar try mid day after your up and about and before Lunch again make sure you have drank enough liquids over the course of the am. before the stick.
This way once you establish a base line figure you'll get a idea of your normal glucose levels and the effects of the V-C. and not just the bodies sugar rush in the am. Remember the Brain is the biggest user of sugar in the body and going from sleep to awake takes a lot of sugar to produce the energy it needs to get back on line and it opens the flood gates on the sugar stores to get what it needs. thus the AM spikes and high levels.

[ofonorow]

Thanks johnwen for taking the time to comment! Lets see if I understand.

Morning sugar spikes!!!
seriously, 160mg/dl is kind of high but not unusual for first awaking levels.

It has been 120 mg/dl consistently for weeks in the a.m. after fasting, but I may have missed my second metformin yesterday.

I think what you saw was the effects of the V-C blocking the serum glucose from entering the cells which is a good sign because it means your body is using the C over the sugar.

Devils advocate. Even if a secondary effect as you suggest, it subsided within 30 minutes? That would suggest that glucose is "pouring" out of the liver all the time. A question comes to mind, what is the half life of glucose in the blood?

I am not claiming I can directly measure vitamin C blood levels, but I know the Riordan clinic has been very concerned that such glucose monitors do register vitamin C (as well as glucose)

More torture! try getting a reading 1st thing like you did at 6.56 then drink about 6 to 8 oz of water wait about 10 min. then another reading then the V-C about 10min again then reading. Even slight dehydration in the am will cause spikes and high levels of sugar which can throw things off. If you mixed your C with water the liquid will throw the levels off also.

Are you suggesting a control? To see whether pure water affects the blood sugar reading? Interesting. I will try this tomorrow, with everything else the same.

To get a good base line number on your sugar try mid day after your up and about and before Lunch again make sure you have drank enough liquids over the course of the am. before the stick.
This way once you establish a base line figure you'll get a idea of your normal glucose levels and the effects of the V-C. and not just the bodies sugar rush in the am. Remember the Brain is the biggest user of sugar in the body and going from sleep to awake takes a lot of sugar to produce the energy it needs to get back on line and it opens the flood gates on the sugar stores to get what it needs. thus the AM spikes and high levels.

Okay, other than more pricks and the test strips, this seems like a very good idea! Next reading before lunch today. i.e. now! Except, that I took 9 grams around 7 a.m. so another 9 gms now may be explosive!

[ofonorow]

These are before-lunch measurements (However, I got carried away posting something else at the forum and missed the 15 minute measurement! So I'll have to do it again tomorrow.)

Johnwen see if this means anything to you.

11:12 a.m. 138 mg/dl (baseline)
11:15 a.m. ultrafine -C (Cardio-C scoop)
11:38 a.m 177 mg/dl (+39 @ 23 min)
11:52 a.m. 123 mg/dl (-15 @ 37 min)

[randian]

Do you have any idea what the measurement variance is? I find it odd that your levels are lower at 11:52 than at 11:12, even though you took a scoop of C in between.

[Johnwen]

Owen:
Talked to rep from a company that makes these meters. He said "as follows"
Take 3.381 oz. of purified water (1dl) and add 100mg of pure V-C mix it well and let it set for about 5min. mix and use it in place of blood on the test strip 1 drop and insert it in meter and read. If it says OVER LIMITS which is 500mg/dl it's a cheap unreliable meter if it reads anywhere from 100 to 150 it is reading the V-C and may not give a good glucose reading while taking V-C. If it reads 0 or error it's not reading the V-C and gives normal or comparitive readings with blood it's what they consider a good meter! (end quote)

I'm thinking a pinch of V-C in 4oz. of water is going to tell you the same results if it's reading it or not. The pinch size probably the smaller the better or if you got a scale that can read a 100mg all the better. Or you could add a gram of V-C to a quart of water (32oz) and get the same levels. I think you get the picture on this. Another thought is do a blood read then a drop of blood and add a drop of V-C mix and see what it gives. Good thing I don't have one handy I'd probably have bandages all over my fingers experimenting with it.

[ofonorow]

Do you have any idea what the measurement variance is? I find it odd that your levels are lower at 11:52 than at 11:12, even though you took a scoop of C in between.

I was thinking insulin response.

[ofonorow]

Running johnwen's control, and no change after drinking water and waiting 10 minutes,

Dec 14
6:00 a.m. 144 mg/dl (baseline)
6:03 a.m. Glass water
6:13 a.m. 142 mg/dl

Just started the vitamin C loading test (6:18 a.m.). (Note: I will try to simulate blood per the rep's suggestion, but the measurements may be difficult. I like this particular meter because it only requires the tiniest spec of blood to give a reading. Freestyle Lite .)


6:18 a.m. 9 CC ultrafine vitamin C powder (Cardio-C scoop)
6:28 a.m 147 mg/dl (+3/5 @ 10 min - a little too much blood)
6:38 a.m. 162 mg/dl (+18/20 @ 20 min)
6:48 a.m. 158 mg/dl (+14/16 @ 30 min)

Certainly didn't double the reading today.

I suppose it is possible that the first glass of water somehow did change the experiment, but not
exactly as I expected? I this what you expected johnwen?

For the record I am using the same finger for every prick.

Also yesterday, after 18 g in five hours - there was no bowel issue, almost a lipo-like effect.

Off to see if I can test the meter with Vit C and water.

[ofonorow]

Owen:
Talked to rep from a company that makes these meters. He said "as follows"
Take 3.381 oz. of purified water (1dl) and add 100mg of pure V-C mix it well and let it set for about 5min. mix and use it in place of blood on the test strip 1 drop and insert it in meter and read. If it says OVER LIMITS which is 500mg/dl it's a cheap unreliable meter if it reads anywhere from 100 to 150 it is reading the V-C and may not give a good glucose reading while taking V-C. If it reads 0 or error it's not reading the V-C and gives normal or comparative readings with blood it's what they consider a good meter! (end quote)

Weighed 100 mg (.1 g) of vitamin C powder and added to approx 3.3 oz of water and stirred.

Reading was 182 mg/dl

(Note this was not in the limits provided by the rep, but I believe this does prove the reader
is sensitive to vitamin C.)

[skyorbit]

I've heard of cases where people think they have high blood sugar because they've been taking Livon's C.

I think it depends on how quickly the liver releases it into the bloodstream.

[Johnwen]

Great checks. We did some checking today with Mr. G meter Man and found 2 of their meters were 16 and 18% over on his meters in comparison to Plasma G levels and 20 and 26% off on serum levels. Which was kind of embarsing to him but then cost came up it's really hard to compare a $40 dollar meter with a $100K blood analyzer and error toward the high side gives some safety margin in Hypoglycemic situations. We did some quick number crunching on your tests and it looks like your meter is reading in the 13 to 18% higher then your levels probably really are thats good news.
Now back to your tests Yes! the lack of the high spike you got yesterday Am. was what I wanted to see go away with hydration. With your meter that does read V-C and glucose is a good indicator how much V-C is actually getting in the blood and causing the lower (5-15) point raise above base line. With Lipo C I'm suspecting you'll see a rise that will last longer and a little higher meaning more will be avaiable for a longer time frame. This can then be converted into %'s and the differences can be compared.
One more test would be to add a pinch @100mg of sea salt with the V-c or use sodium ascorbate and see what kind rise happens. I suspect the rise will be minimal as the body will use it as fast as it hits the blood. Which means the reserves would be empty as fast as it goes in.
So I think when you put the %'s together we'll see what we already know that SA is for the NOW times. AA for daily use and Lipo for it's lasting effects when we need lasting protection.

[johnfromtexas]

Great thread! I just want to post my support and encouragement to you guys and your study. Last week my father and I were wondering the same thing, if a glucose meter could provide some indication of VC levels and I was extremely surprised to see this thread pop up! I'll be posting my own findings with the glucose meter sometime after the 25th, and until then I'm stoked to see what you guys come up with.

Cheers to you Owen, Johnwen, skyorbit and randian...

[ofonorow]

Away for the weekend. If the water "thing" is a true effect, keeping
sugar low by taking a glass of water 10 minutes before food, that would be a great weight
loss tool.

baseline 140 mg/dl
7:55 a.m. 9 CC ultafine ascorbic acid

Nuts. I waited 20 minutes, rather than the 10 or 15 minutes I meant to, so I may have missed the peak. (I now wonder, was that first 323 mg/dl @ 15 minutes really an anomaly?)

8:15 a.m. 157 mg/dl (+17 mg/dl @ 20 min)
8:35 a.m. 131 mg/dl (-9 mg/dl @ 40 min)

I'll still measure Lypo the same way, but I agree, I wouldn't necessarily expect the peak
so soon.

Also, I can test our sodium ascorbate too (or is there a reason you prefer sea salt?) Rereading:

One more test would be to add a pinch @100mg of sea salt with the V-c or use sodium ascorbate and see what kind rise happens. I suspect the rise will be minimal as the body will use it as fast as it hits the blood. Which means the reserves would be empty as fast as it goes in.

Yes, but the other explanation, if Hickey/Roberts is correct, ascorbic acid can (obviously) pass through the stomach lining, but sodium ascorbate has to pass into the intestines, so release should take longer to measure. (I just ordered more test strips!)

[ofonorow]

Questions for johnwen.

We are almost ready to begin a testing protocol. Tomorrow morning, I will take the measurements after the same amount of ultrafine ascorbic acid every 5 minutes for at least an hour. Just to verify that we understand the curve. In the future, we can take fewer measurements along the curve.

Question 1. Again, can you explain the purpose of the first glass of plain water? Do you think I should introduce that into the protocol tomorrow?

Question 2. I have been taking the measurements (save one just before lunch) when I wake up after fasting. Do you think that really matters? Once the blood levels have dropped, do you think I could repeat the test maybe in a hour w/valid results (at least up to bowel tolerance!)

The objective is to measure blood levels (and thus absorption?) of different forms of ascorbic acid (particle size), as well as sodium ascorbate and Lipo-C, and perhaps, if this works, homemade liposomal C.

For those who want to try this at home - and help provide data, while it might be interesting to test other glucose meters, and perhaps add them to our "approved" list of vitamin C meters, however, it would help us collect data if you used the same meter that I am using, i.e., Abbott Lab's FREESTYLE LITE meter. A glucose meter which we have verified will measure vitamin C in the blood as glucose. A big benefit it that it requires a miniscule (very small dot) of blood per test.

So if you are making your own liposomal C and want to add data to this experiment, please use the Freestyle Lite if at all possible, and it would also be good to first run the same experiments, perhaps every 10 minutes with a high amount of pure ascorbic acid. to see how you and your meter react. This provides a baseline for your homemade liposomal data.

Instructions for using the meter.

1. Verifying the meter. They do provide a control solution, and you can call Abbott labs for help, as you can run these tests and disable the automatic collection data because they would otherwise effect your weekly and monthly averages. You might also follow Johnwens instructions, adding 100 mg of ascorbic acid to 3.38 oz of water, stirring, and measuring a drop. In my case, the water came out to around 180-190 mg/dl. The point is to make sure the meter is operating properly.

2. Drawing blood. I was told that "squeezing" after the prick (is bad) because doing this can affect the reading because more "interstitial fluid" (rather than blood) can be induced. You are supposed to shake the hands (to get blood flowing) and rub the finger prior to the prick. And try to get the same amount of blood for each reading.

I am pricking the same finger (4th finger - closest to the little finger)

3. The 1st pure water measurement after 10 minutes is good control, we don't expect the reading to be much different.

We should soon know how often to take the readings.

If anyone determines how long it takes for blood levels to rise after taking either Lypo-C or liposomal C, that information would be much appreciated.

[Johnwen]

Question 1. Again, can you explain the purpose of the first glass of plain water? Do you think I should introduce that into the protocol tomorrow?

HYDRATION! After sleeping 6-8 hours the body has expelled any were from 8 to 32oz. of liquids from just evaporation through the skin. More if the enviroment has low humidity. Then the amount of fluids the kidneys have recycled over and over till they finally said this is all junk and starts throwing it into the bladder. Then you have all the other fluids the body needs to produce which require water base. By this time you wake up and mouth is dry eyes are crudy skin feels dry muscles feel a little stiff you head to the bathroom then the coffee pot and you thought it was the caffine well that's part of it but it's more the fluids it craves to get things right and moving.
Yes on the protocol but be consistent on the amount.

Question 2. I have been taking the measurements (save one just before lunch) when I wake up after fasting. Do you think that really matters? Once the blood levels have dropped, do you think I could repeat the test maybe in a hour w/valid results (at least up to bowel tolerance!)

Yes it matters. What you want to do is be consistent with the times this helps you establish baselines because the body has it's own clock and to read with an accurate number it must be done at the same time to see the results being looked for.