Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

[gizmo1955]

I have been taking Ascorbic Acid to bowel tolerance since the beginning of August 2015. The AA was to attempt to reverse some potential heart blockage as I had CABG in 1998 and since then 3 occasions where stents were placed for a total of 7. ( the last being October of 2013). All of the stents except 1 are drug eluding. For the last several months I have been experiencing some mild angina that is easily dealt with using a nitro pill. When going for a walk each day I will take one before I leave and again midway through the 2.5 mile walk. After reading some posts from this site, I would much prefer to deal with the issue with AA and the Pauling Therapy if possible rather than deal with another stent.

I have read many of the posts in this forum and I have learned a great deal but I don't know that I have captured a complete picture of if in fact the Pauling Therapy can reverse cardiovascular disease in people with drug eluding stents. Or if so, what the difficulties are and when you can expect results. I had also considered EDTA and EECP but the cost affiliated in moving to an area that provided the service seemed to be a bit prohibitive. My thoughts were that if the Pauling Therapy would work, I would be much better off.

I see my cardiologist the first part of October 2015 and I know he will want to do a nuclear stress test etc. as a response to my angina. I would not be surprised if his recommendation will be more stents. Is this something that I should consider again? I will say that my response to the stents has been fairly positive other than it doesn't last that long, angina usually returns within a year or two. I have discussed with him several times that I felt we were just treating the symptoms and not the real issue. I keep thinking about what the conversation will be like with him regarding the Pauling Therapy and his willingness to work with me to keep from having any additional stents.(knowing full well that it is taking money out of their pockets) It doesn't help that I am 200 miles from the closest large city to find like minded doctors. (PT)

Also, after reading many of johnwen's posts, I have a great desire to get off many of the current meds I am on,(see below) THAT will be another interesting discussion with the cardiologist.

All taken at bedtime..

1500 mg Metformin HCL ER
100mg Januvia
50-12.5mg Losartan /HCT
10mg Atorvastatin
400mg COQ10
200mcg Vitamin K-2
(2) Mature Multi Vitamin
(2) 1600 mg Omega 3-6-9
40g Ascorbic Acid (in 4 - 10g doses)
6g L-Lysine (3g morning and evening)
4.2g L-Proline (2.1g morning and evening)
6.2g L-Arginine (3.1g morning and evening)
2.4g L-Citruline (1.2g morning and evening)
30-45 drops 99% DMSO mixed with AA etc. (15 in morning, afternoon and evening)

Additionally, I would like to mention that for the last year I have been eating 95% plant based (McDougall)and was walking 2-3 miles a day but has been cut back a bit due to the angina and Plantar fasciitis.

So, I am curious to hear the groups thoughts on a number of things.
1. Does the current AA and other supplements look adequate to turn around cardio vascular disease considering the drug eluding stents, and if not how should I modify.
2. What changes should I be looking for to get a feel for if PT is actually working. (I would assume the reduction or loss of the angina with exercise)
3. I know everyone is different but is there a time frame that if I see no changes that I should look elsewhere? Or does PT will work in ALL cases, definitively?
4. Knowing that my appointment with the cardiologist is the first of next month, if it comes down to it, how do I have a conversation with the doctor about PT and for that matter, my desire to be weaned off of Atorvastatin? If things hold true to course, he will more than likely want to install more stents. My concern with that is that if I do not go along with the stents, what risk am I taking on or how do I minimize the risks and still stay on PT?

I know this is rather long but I have tried to anticipate many of your questions in advance.

I have to add that this group seems to have some of the most selfless people that are willing to give up their precious time to help others. I have visited many other forums but this one has overwhelmed me with quality and completeness of the feedback received. Owen, johnwen, edoc and many others should feel extremely proud of the written legacy that they have left here. Many thanks......

[jimmylesante]

doctor about PT and for that matter, my desire to be weaned off of Atorvastatin?

Doc:your cholesterol ratio and triglycerides are high. I'm going to put you on Atorvastatin for a month.
Me: No fucking way Doc

That's how my recent chat went. Two things scare doctors into thinking things through
1)your knowledge and intelligence of medicine
2)Other doctors

I don't see any vitamin E in your list?
Plantar fascitis- how much weight have you lost in the last year?

[gizmo1955]

I wish I had the knowledge some of you guys have, it would make discussions like this a lot easier and I probably would not be in the place I am.
I have not been taking vitamin E but can add it. How does E help for this situation and how much should I take?
Regarding weight, I lost about 20lbs about a year ago when I changed to a plant based diet. The planter fasciitis started 3 or 4 months ago.

[ofonorow]

Unfortunately, you are getting close to the point of where medicine admits they cannot help you any more (and suggest you take a look at the Internet). This is what happened for most of the early Pauling therapy adopters; they had constant pain, had used up their leg veins, etc. Docs told them "nothing more we can do."

In your case, you would be wise to not wait until the very end of your rope - and seeing you regimen (will comment below) you have been on a good protocol for about one month! (Should be painting your house by now, except for all those "drug eluding" stents.)

I have been taking Ascorbic Acid to bowel tolerance since the beginning of August 2015. The AA was to attempt to reverse some potential heart blockage as I had CABG in 1998 and since then 3 occasions where stents were placed for a total of 7. ( the last being October of 2013). All of the stents except 1 are drug eluding. For the last several months I have been experiencing some mild angina that is easily dealt with using a nitro pill. When going for a walk each day I will take one before I leave and again midway through the 2.5 mile walk. After reading some posts from this site, I would much prefer to deal with the issue with AA and the Pauling Therapy if possible rather than deal with another stent.

I see my cardiologist the first part of October 2015 and I know he will want to do a nuclear stress test etc. as a response to my angina. I would not be surprised if his recommendation will be more stents. Is this something that I should consider again?

If he does order the nuclear stress test - the results will be interesting (after only one month on Pauling's protocol.) Please keep us informed as this could be a unique learning experience.

I will say that my response to the stents has been fairly positive other than it doesn't last that long, angina usually returns within a year or two.

This is called restenosis - and is common with stents, which is why they started "eluding drugs" trying to stop your veins from healing themselves. (According to Pauling/rath - these blockages are the bodies attempt at healing in the face of low vitamin C supply in your system.

I have discussed with him several times that I felt we were just treating the symptoms and not the real issue. I keep thinking about what the conversation will be like with him regarding the Pauling Therapy and his willingness to work with me to keep from having any additional stents.(knowing full well that it is taking money out of their pockets) It doesn't help that I am 200 miles from the closest large city to find like minded doctors. (PT)

In the case where you are too far gone for any more stents (to my knowledge they cannot be replaced/removed) you should be free to speak with him. Otherwise, I think I'd not mentiong add Pauling's protocol, and see how the testing is going first. If you are "cured" he will credit is regimen, but you might then mention what you did without fear of retribution. The problem is that when you bring up something out of his experience/training - is reaction is going to be negative. No way around that.

Also, after reading many of johnwen's posts, I have a great desire to get off many of the current meds I am on,(see below) THAT will be another interesting discussion with the cardiologist.

All taken at bedtime..

1500 mg Metformin HCL ER
100mg Januvia
50-12.5mg Losartan /HCT
10mg Atorvastatin
400mg COQ10
200mcg Vitamin K-2
(2) Mature Multi Vitamin
(2) 1600 mg Omega 3-6-9
40g Ascorbic Acid (in 4 - 10g doses)
6g L-Lysine (3g morning and evening)
4.2g L-Proline (2.1g morning and evening)
6.2g L-Arginine (3.1g morning and evening)
2.4g L-Citruline (1.2g morning and evening)
30-45 drops 99% DMSO mixed with AA etc. (15 in morning, afternoon and evening)

Per other poster - you are definitely missing a good vitamin E!
You are missing Vitamin A and a Super-B complex (Pauling's foundational recommendations)
You are missing an asbsorbable magnesium

I generally do not recommend Arginine - however with all your stents, I have learned from johnwen that it is probably a good idea.

In my opinion, any statin cholesterol lowering drug does far more harm than any good.

Additionally, I would like to mention that for the last year I have been eating 95% plant based (McDougall)and was walking 2-3 miles a day but has been cut back a bit due to the angina and Plantar fasciitis.

What is your blood sugar? While "plant based diet" sounds attractive (and we have current posters that advocate it), it is possible any diet high in carbs is contributing to your problems. No trans fats. No polyunsaturated fats. But otherwise, you would be wise to follow Pauling's advice in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER. Eggs are great foods! Etc.

So, I am curious to hear the groups thoughts on a number of things.
1. Does the current AA and other supplements look adequate to turn around cardio vascular disease considering the drug eluding stents, and if not how should I modify.

40,000 mg is pretty amazing for several reasons, so in a word, yes. Vitamin C is "adequate." Add vitamin E (Unique-E, Super B complex, Vitamin A and magnesium)

2. What changes should I be looking for to get a feel for if PT is actually working. (I would assume the reduction or loss of the angina with exercise)

If angina is bad, the good effects of PT were usually felt within 10 days. Pain relief.
(30 days at higher dosages and people who couldn't walk across the room were painting their houses)
However, drug eluding stents were not available or uncommon back then

3. I know everyone is different but is there a time frame that if I see no changes that I should look elsewhere? Or does PT will work in ALL cases, definitively?

It is not being formally studied and I try to track down every negative case to understand what happened. Yes the new DE stents have created a variable, but raising the dosage has helped in many cases. Usually people regressed because they felt cured and well and stopped taking their PT. We have had a few posters tell us that it didn't help them, but there is no way to know how compliant (or honest) they were. We do know they were well enough to post - at least for awhile.)

The reason I feel so confident recommending it (besides all the positive testimonials - heck if it works even once it is a big win - is because the two primary elements are very safe and non toxic - vitamin C and lysine, and in fact, both are needed in some amount for life, so all drugs must be able to interact with them. You add Pauling, and the "miraculous" effects that are seen over and over, and obviously we cannot promise you the same result. But I think the odds are high that if you can somehow avoid more stents, you will be doing very well soon.... see nineboys posts.. It is instructive to read from the very beginning! We had no idea what would happen in his case..

4. Knowing that my appointment with the cardiologist is the first of next month, if it comes down to it, how do I have a conversation with the doctor about PT and for that matter, my desire to be weaned off of Atorvastatin? If things hold true to course, he will more than likely want to install more stents. My concern with that is that if I do not go along with the stents, what risk am I taking on or how do I minimize the risks and still stay on PT?

I know this is rather long but I have tried to anticipate many of your questions in advance.

I have to add that this group seems to have some of the most selfless people that are willing to give up their precious time to help others. I have visited many other forums but this one has overwhelmed me with quality and completeness of the feedback received. Owen, johnwen, edoc and many others should feel extremely proud of the written legacy that they have left here. Many thanks......

Not a good answer - Can you delay your appoint for a week or two? The more time you can be on the therapy, the more likely your test results will show a turn around. And if you do turn around, he will be very pleased that his treatment protocol is working in your case

[exitium]

I lost about 20lbs about a year ago when I changed to a plant based diet. The planter fasciitis started 3 or 4 months ago.

plant based diets require B supplementation, especially B12, id recommend source naturals methylcobalamin.

As for plantar fasciitis potassium bicarbonate resolved mine. Most people dont get anywhere near the 4700mg a day the FDA recommends.

[gizmo1955]

Thanks for responding Owen,

(Should be painting your house by now, except for all those "drug eluding" stents.)

Painting the house (or any other activity that doesn't raise the heart rate much) doesn't really bother me. I can lift and move things around, I have been refinishing a bathroom with no problems at all. It's just when I push a bit at walking trying to increase my heart rate is when I have the angina. The appointment with the cardiologist next month will probably also include a stress test. I don't know if I will do well on the treadmill or will have to do a thallium.

If he does order the nuclear stress test - the results will be interesting (after only one month on Pauling's protocol.) Please keep us informed as this could be a unique learning experience.

Can you get a copy of these tests? If so, what should I look for? Forgive me.... my latest/best saying is "People don't know, what the don't know" and it's especially true when it comes to this stuff.

Per other poster - you are definitely missing a good vitamin E!
You are missing Vitamin A and a Super-B complex (Pauling's foundational recommendations)
You are missing an asbsorbable magnesium

Will add these to my routine. Have any thoughts on quantity?

What is your blood sugar? While "plant based diet" sounds attractive (and we have current posters that advocate it), it is possible any diet high in carbs is contributing to your problems. No trans fats. No polyunsaturated fats. But otherwise, you would be wise to follow Pauling's advice in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER. Eggs are great foods! Etc.

Last HGB A1C was 5.9.(taken July 2015) Regarding the plant based diet, I go back to my statement about you don't know what you don't know. When I was investigating this last year this diet seemed to be the REAL answer to treating the source of my affliction. After a year on it now, I know that it has helped but I don't know that it has been the CURE. That being said, I'm sure that I could have done better at following the diet, not so much being plant based but more sticking with the raw vegetables rather than including some processed foods as well, may have improved things more.

I might add the following for further analysis..additional data found in the July labs...

Cholesterol 180.5
Triglycerides 206.1
HDL 42.2
LDL (calc) 97.1
Protien,(tot) 6.8
Glucose 94.5

In my opinion, any statin cholesterol lowering drug does far more harm than any good.

I agree, I've been wanting to get off of them for a while. Should I be looking for some doctor that is willing to go along with that idea or should I just do it on my own? I have been tossing this around for several years, again going back to "you don't know what you don't know" .... it is hard to make a decision when there is soooo much conflicting data out there.

If angina is bad, the good effects of PT were usually felt within 10 days. Pain relief.
(30 days at higher dosages and people who couldn't walk across the room were painting their houses)
However, drug eluding stents were not available or uncommon back then

Angina is not bad, at least what I think is bad. It bothers me that I have to use 2 nitro pills to get through a walk though. As far as being on the protocol for 30 days or more, there are times that I feel that it is helping which could be a placebo affect, then other days that I don't think it is doing anything at all. And yes, I am aware that stents may throw the whole calculation off because of lack of data.

But I think the odds are high that if you can somehow avoid more stents, you will be doing very well soon.... see nineboys posts.. It is instructive to read from the very beginning! We had no idea what would happen in his case..

I will look them up..

Can you delay your appoint for a week or two? The more time you can be on the therapy, the more likely your test results will show a turn around. And if you do turn around, he will be very pleased that his treatment protocol is working in your case

I can try, he seems to be booked pretty heavily. The only issue I have is that the last appointment I had with his was a year ago which would have been a year after the last stent placement (September 2013) At that time, everything looked rosy. This time I would think that things would look like they have gone down hill since the last session, just based on the addition of angina.

[gizmo1955]

exitium

plant based diets require B supplementation, especially B12, id recommend source naturals methylcobalamin.

As for plantar fasciitis potassium bicarbonate resolved mine. Most people dont get anywhere near the 4700mg a day the FDA recommends.

Thanks for the info, I will be looking into both.

[Montmorency]

exitium

plant based diets require B supplementation, especially B12, id recommend source naturals methylcobalamin.

As for plantar fasciitis potassium bicarbonate resolved mine. Most people dont get anywhere near the 4700mg a day the FDA recommends.

Thanks for the info, I will be looking into both.

I guess that RDA relates to the potassium, rather than potassium bicarbonate specifically.
I've seen some people recommend pure potassium chloride (but not low-salt, because of additives),e,g, to replace some, or add to normal salt (or sea salt). It's supposed to be as bioavailable as NaCl.

[89826]

Gizmo, 95% adherence to a plant-based diet is a good step in the right direction, but not enough. Here's why: a healthy endothelium is essential to preventing heart attacks, and certain foods (chiefly animal protein and oils) destroy the endothelium. 95% adherence means you are constantly eating foods which injure the endothelium. (It takes about 3 weeks for the endothelium to regrow when the insults stop.) Also, by eating poorly 5% of the time, you maintain cravings for those foods. In roughly 3 weeks, those cravings disappear.

Have a look at heartattackproof.com, a website created by a very progressive physician named Caldwell Esselstyn. He works at the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic. He has several fantastic lectures on youtube. He has saved the lives of many patients who were so sick with heart disease that they were basically given death sentences- they couldn't stand any more bypasses or stents.

I don't mean this in a critical, negative way, but it strikes me that there is an us-against-them mentality on this website: we are the smart and progressive ones and the rest of the world is misinformed and foolish. There is some truth to that, and there are definitely corrupting influences, but I usually don't dismiss ideas, viewpoints, and information out-of-hand. This is not a zero-sum game, and intellectual curiosity is a good thing.

I am fighting heart disease myself. I have been through the wringer with two Harvard Medical school trained cardiologists who gave me poor, incomplete advice, but I don't ascribe bad intentions to them. They promoted what they know (have been taught). Physicians are not much more than plumbers (not that plumbers aren't praiseworthy); they definitely are not scientists.

The stakes are high: my life. So my strategy is to employ every sensible means in the fight: a plant-based diet with no oil, Pauling's ideas, and intermittent fasting. Why wouldn't I?

You didn't mention Esselstyn, so perhaps you are unaware of him and his work. Have a look.

[gizmo1955]

89826, I can say that my adherence to eliminating animal products and oils has been better than 95%, I have had no animal products or if so it was through something that I may have ate that had some very small amount of animal bi-product in it. As for oil, it is much the same. Certainly no added oil but maybe some in processing a cracker or similar. My 5% of non- adherence to a plant-base diet is mostly from not eating more raw vegetables rather than cooked.

In regard to Dr. Esselstyn, I am familiar with his work along with Dr. McDougall. I believe both of them counciled President Clinton when he was having heart issues. As I recall, Esselstyn wasn't as strict with oils as McDougall was, he believed in total oil elimination including fish oil etc.

[89826]

Good that you are aware of Esselstyn's work. I think you may be thinking of Dean Ornish, who worked with Clinton and talks about taking fish oil. It is Esselstyn who is so adamant about not eating any oil. All oil damages the endothelium, which is the first step towards disaster.

I don't think Esselstyn cares whether vegetables are raw or cooked, nor McDougall for that matter. The main difference I have noticed is that McDougall emphasizes starchy foods as the main component of a healthy diet. That doesn't contradict Esselstyn's approach at all, but he doesn't emphasize it as much. Esselstyn seems focused on rescuing people, including the very sick, from heart disease, or preventing it. McDougall seems a little more focused on overall health including weight loss. The two are just talking about slightly different parts of the same picture.

If I were in your shoes, I would make every effort to go to 100% compliance. A lot is at stake with it seems little margin for error. If you haven't already, look at a couple of Esselstyn's lectures on youtube. He is an excellent speaker, and his concern and compassion come shining through.

[gizmo1955]

Thanks, will do.

[89826]

Gizmo, just to be clear: of course eggs are not plant food, so are to be avoided. I see that Owen praised them to you in a post above. And he talks about carbohydrates as being bad for you. That strikes me as utter nonsense. If you don't eat carbohydrates, all that is left to eat is lots of fat and protein-- foods which damage the endothelium. Plus I always look askance at people who use carbohydrates as an umbrella term. There is a world of difference between simple carbohydrates and complex carbohydrates. The former aren't good for you because they spike insulin levels and fructose stripped of fiber is injurious to the endothelium. Complex carbohydrates, i.e. starches, on the other hand are ideal food and fuel. They are the human diet.

[pamojja]

[pamojja]

Complex carbohydrates, i.e. starches, on the other hand are ideal food and fuel.

To me they shoot blood glucose through the roof. You just cannot generalize dietary recommendations without taking bio-individuallity into account.