Using Cardio-C after heart attack and bypass surgery

[ChuckArbogast]

I just found out about the Pauling Therapy and The Vitamin C foundation. This is unfortunately after I had a major heart attack in January of 2015. They placed a stent and within a few months I had angina when working in the yard. I eventually changed cardiologist's for convenience and when mentioning my angina to him he wanted me to have a stress test done, which in turn a catheterization. That showed that my stent was 100% closed but also found other arteries 90% blocked, 70% and two that were 50% blocked. He suggested bypass surgery, and I did have that done on Oct. 23rd 2015. Two were done with other arteries and the remaining 3 was done with veins. I am now 41 years old with this issue and am trying to prevent this from happening again. Prior to my stress test, I had researched things about what supplements to take but didn't find out about the Pauling Therapy until now. My goal is to get off of my prescription medications and lead a long normal life. I found about Pauling Therapy and ordered Cardio-C and started taking it about 9 days ago. I just recently read on the forums that I may not want to take Proline due to my bypass with veins. I am taking a protein powder that lists its amino acid profile for one serving and it says that it contains 1683 mg of Lysine and 1147 mg of Proline, among several others per serving. With all that said, I have some questions:
- Should I stop taking Cardio-C since it has proline in it? If so, for how long?
- Should I stop taking the protein powder since it has proline in it. I have been using it for the last few months at one serving per day.
- If I should stop taking Cardio-C, then where can I get the Vitamin C and lysine combination?

I have several more questions but those are the immediate ones I have right now as I do have Cardio-C on autoship and may need to cancel that.

Thanks for your help,
Chuck

[ofonorow]

In the beginning, we were afraid to mention the Pauling invention to family and friends - until a relative died on the operating table during heart surgery. Some of the plaque broke free during the surgery and lodged in the relatives brain. And then we have been very cautious as this is new ground, it is not being studied, and every new case represents and experiment.

There is a theoretical reason why a new bypass patient might be cautious of adding proline, however, there are no known cases in real life where this was an issue, and many instances of people who took Cardio-C after a bypass without any problems.

The concern is that perhaps Lp(a) helps to stabilize the thin leg veins that are used for heart bypass operations. That maybe the success of these operations, unknowingly depends on Lp(a) to strengthen the bypass. We believe from anecdotal reports, that proline can inhibit the body from producing Lp(a), or at least keep apo(a) from sticking to an LDL particle creating Lp(a). So the concern was that by taking proline, and limiting the availability of the surrogate healing factor - Lp(a) - proline might be interfering with the strength of new bypass graphs.

However, so many people have taken proline after a bypass without problems, in my opinion, there is probably no reason to avoid proline, especially after the normal course of healing has occurred, e.g., 6 weeks.

In your case, the Lp(a) overshoot and blocked your stent (100%) and arteries, leading to your bypass operation. So to avoid that happening to your bypass veins you are probably not only okay, but wise to continue with proline.

[ChuckArbogast]

Thanks Owen for the reply. I would like to get Johnwen's opinion on my questions as well.

Also, you didn't reply to my question about the protein powder I use. I wasn't sure if I should eliminate or reduce my lysine and proline from Cardio-C due to the amount in one serving of my protein powder. Or should I just ignore that amount as that is technically what I get from food and not a supplement, although I guess you could call protein powder a supplement.

I have other questions about my situation too, so if anyone request additional information like specific prescription medications and supplement, I would be happy to supply that.

Thanks,
Chuck

[ofonorow]

I am taking a protein powder that lists its amino acid profile for one serving and it says that it contains 1683 mg of Lysine and 1147 mg of Proline, among several others per ser

Sounds like a good powder, and per my last message, I don't think you should necessarily avoid proline. In my opinion, adding the powder is fine. Per previous discussions, johnwen has estimated that up to 14,000 mg of lysine daily is "safe" and we know of individuals who have taken more without problems.

[ChuckArbogast]

Thanks again Owen. I will continue to take Cardio-C twice a day to get 5g Vitamin C, 5g Lysine and 1g Proline. I will also be taking 3g of your other Vitamin C powder once a day, at least to start. That would give me 8 grams at this point and then going up from there.

I do have some more questions that I hope either you or Johnwen can answer.
- I think I remember you talking about L-Arginine for bypass patients. When should I start taking that, how much and what is a good source to get it from?
- You mention not taking Cardio-C with fiber, so that is why you suggest 30 minutes before or 2 hours after eating to consume it. When consuming the straight vitamin C powder, is there also a problem with fiber so the same times apply?
- I currently taking Vitamin C doses 3 times a day, is that ok? What is the benefit of increasing the number of times in a day I consume it?

Thanks,
Chuck

[Johnwen]

[ChuckArbogast]

Johnwen,
Thanks for the information. Please clarify on the following topics:
- Should I take Cardio-C twice a day, once a day , or at all for the first year due to it's 500mg of Proline per serving?
- Should I stop taking my protein shake due to it's Proline content of 1147 mg per serving?
- When should I start taking L-Arginine?
- How much of L-Arginine should I be taking a day? In one dose or multiple?
- What is a good source for L-Arginine?

I don't want to mess this up, so that is why I am asking the detailed questions.

Thanks for your help,
Chuck

[ofonorow]

Obviously these answers are our best guesses after 20 years of anecdotal reports (since 1996).

As far as the arginine, I think I may have a handle on what the "lysine/arginine antagonism" is. Apparently both lysine and arginine share the same "holes" through the intestines into the blood stream, so one, but not both can get through when taken at the same time. (So take them at different times).

There is a special form of arginine which does not compete with lysine (used to be in our Ascorbade product) and I'll have to look it up, it is not common, but it was found that this arginine taken together with lysine increased human growth hormone significantly in young men.

[ChuckArbogast]

Obviously these answers are our best guesses after 20 years of anecdotal reports (since 1996).

As far as the arginine, I think I may have a handle on what the "lysine/arginine antagonism" is. Apparently both lysine and arginine share the same "holes" through the intestines into the blood stream, so one, but not both can get through when taken at the same time. (So take them at different times).

There is a special form of arginine which does not compete with lysine (used to be in our Ascorbade product) and I'll have to look it up, it is not common, but it was found that this arginine taken together with lysine increased human growth hormone significantly in young men.

Owen,
Thanks for your reply. Do you know of a good lysine and arginine supplement? Since I may need to limit my Proline intake from supplements, I may need to stop the Cardio C product until a year after my bypass surgery, which would be October 23rd, 2016.

Also, If I have to stop taking Cardio C, how long can an unopened container last? I have two containers unopened now and don't want them to expire.
Thanks,
Chuck

[ChuckArbogast]

[ofonorow]

First, put the Cardio-C in the freezer (not refrigerator) and it will last frozen indefinitely. I will leave the comments on your medications to johnwen, but you are taking a statin

I like your nutrient protocol, but I hope you just neglected to mention a good multi-vitamin/multi-mineral.

The other 2 important Pauling recommendations you, as a heart patient, are missing!

Vitamin E (400 to 800 iu). The best vitamin E is Unique-E (by A. C. Grace) an it is very important for heart patients (and has been able to reverse damage to hearts after a heart attack per EKG measurements.)

Vitamin A (25,000 iu)

[ChuckArbogast]

First, put the Cardio-C in the freezer (not refrigerator) and it will last frozen indefinitely. I will leave the comments on your medications to johnwen, but you are taking a statin

I like your nutrient protocol, but I hope you just neglected to mention a good multi-vitamin/multi-mineral.

The other 2 important Pauling recommendations you, as a heart patient, are missing!

Vitamin E (400 to 800 iu). The best vitamin E is Unique-E (by A. C. Grace) an it is very important for heart patients (and has been able to reverse damage to hearts after a heart attack per EKG measurements.)

Vitamin A (25,000 iu)

Owen,
Thanks for reply. Do you think I should stop taking Cardio-C until October 2016? If so, is the CardioAde product the next best alternative to Cardio-C?

I hope johnwen comments soon as I would like to get off of all of those prescription medications unless there is a good reason in his opinion. I am taking a statin at 10 mg per day. I want to get off of it but my Cardiologist doesn't want me to. It does cause me muscle aches, so it was reduced from 80 mg, after my heart attack, then down to 40 mg, down to 20 mg and I did talk him into lowering it to 10 mg last November. He wants my LDL as "low as possible", which I don't understand, so I think he will never want me off of it.

I did not mention a supplement I take in which I consider it a multi-vitamin/multi-mineral. It is called Athletic Greens and its ingredient list is located here: https://www.athleticgreens.com/v5/page/ingredients If you could review that and let me know what you think it is appreciated.

I would like to get off of some of those supplements I listed as the cost is adding up with all of this.

I know I am missing the Vitamin E and Vitamin A but I am confused as what to get. I see there are different types of E and A and I am not sure if to get them in powder form, if possible, or just tablets. If tablets, I know quality is important, so I don't know where to get them. I knew you mentioned Unique-E to me before but I see it has some different options. Could you provide me a link to the exact one you suggest? My Urologist wanted me to start taking 400 IU of Vit. E three times a day for an issue I am having but when I talked to my Cardiologist about it, he was against it. At that time, I was on Plavix, which I am not currently one per doctor's request, and the aspirin mentioned previously. I wonder if it is ok to stop taking the aspirin now and just take the Vit. E.

I don't think I have seen, yet, a recommendation on what type to get and from where. If you could again provide a link to what you recommend that would be great.

Also, as mentioned by johnwen earlier, I should also be taking L-Arginine. But like the others, I am not sure which type, what amounts, when to start taking it (since I had bypass surgery in Oct. 2015), and where to get it from. Like the others, I link to a recommended one would be great. Not sure if you know of this or if johnwen will have to reply on this.

I forgot to add Magnesium to this list. Like all the others, I am not sure which type, what amounts and where to get it from. Like the others, I link to a recommended one would be great.

Thanks again for all the help,
Chuck

[ofonorow]

From the reports we have received for the past 20 years, there is no real danger in adding proline, and your body is making some anyway. We have been overly cautious, perhaps to a fault.

Also you can get both the vitamin A and vitamin E in the Tower Heart Technology drink mix.

[ChuckArbogast]

From the reports we have received for the past 20 years, there is no real danger in adding proline, and your body is making some anyway. We have been overly cautious, perhaps to a fault.

Also you can get both the vitamin A and vitamin E in the Tower Heart Technology drink mix.

Owen,
Is the Vitamin C in the Tower products just as good as Cardio-C?

I looked at all the Tower products and it doesn't seem like I would get enough Vitamin A and/or Vitamin E just in their products. So, I would still need a supplement other than them.

I know your recommendation is Unique-E by A.C. Grace, however there appears to be more than one type they are selling. Unique-E Mixed Tocopherols concentrate and Unique-E Tocotrienols (Tocopherol Free). Which is the right one to get? Or is it best to use both? What is the difference with Tocopherols and Tocotrienols?

I don't think I have seen a Vitamin A product that you have endorsed. What do you recommend?

Along those same lines, what do you recommend for L-Arginine and Magnesium?

For Vitamin K, I am taking a Vitamin K2 as menaquinone at 100 mcg daily. I see some talk on these forums about Super K from Life Extension that contains K1 as phytonadione at 1500 mcg, K2 as menaquinone-4 at 1000 mcg and K2 as menaquinone-7 at 200 mcg. Is what I am taking fine or should I switch to the Super K? Also, should just take the recommended dosage or more?

Thanks,
Chuck

[ofonorow]

I know your recommendation is Unique-E by A.C. Grace, however there appears to be more than one type they are selling. Unique-E Mixed Tocopherols concentrate and Unique-E Tocotrienols (Tocopherol Free). Which is the right one to get? Or is it best to use both? What is the difference with Tocopherols and Tocotrienols?

The original Unique-E with Mixed Tocopherols is what we recommend for heart disease and clearing bad EKGs.

The company was "pressured" into offering the Tocotrienols product, and while I am no expert, I have seen with "my own eyes" the effect that the original product can have on heart disease.

I know my friend Ralph Lotz is impressed by the research on Tocotrienols, but I would need to be better educated to understand what they offer. The problem as we have discussed previously, is that unlike other vitamins, there is really no "deficiency disease" associated with vitamin E, so the definition of vitamin E has grown to cover a large number of related substances.

My wife and I use a Super-K from LEF.ORG every day, but I did notice that they are offering another version of vitamin K these days. I trust the ingredients in Life Extension products, but I don't know if they are always the most economical.

Finally, I have tried many times over the years to talk Tower Laboratories into using Quali-C, but the economics are too strong in favor of the Chinese vitamin C. ($3 per kilo for Chinese C versus $27 per kilo wholesale for DSM/Quali-C). The Tower product continues to sell, meaning that it works, implying that the vitamin C used in Tower products is fine - just as effective for curing chronic scurvy.